March 24, 2026 · GAMING OVERSIGHT · 12,672 words · 12 speakers · 154 segments
Good morning. It's certainly an honor to be here with the House Ag and Rural Affairs Committee Chairman, my co-chairman Dan Mao, myself, and our members, along with Chairman Pat Harkins and Chairman Russ Diamonds and all the members of the Gaming Oversight Committee as well. And we thank all of you for joining us and sharing some of this very, very important information that we can now hold for record. The Commonwealth equine industry benefits a great deal from our agriculture economy and by creating jobs and supporting communities across Pennsylvania. We are all aware of the importance of it and this morning we're going to hear testimony so that we can hear about the critical sector directly that's related to our farmers, our horsemen, and our experts, helping us as policymakers to better understand the current landscape and explore opportunities to strengthen and support this vital industry. I would ask everyone if you would kindly mute your phones and so on so that it's not
disturbing. Are we recording today? We are recording, so therefore, please keep your phones muted. And if we do have a technical problem, we'll take a break and have them fix it first.
So once again, I want to thank all the testifiers, and I look forward to learning and hearing about all the information that you're going to share with us today and how we can continue to support the Pennsylvania horse racing industry. And with that, I'd like to turn it over to Chairman Harkins for his remarks.
Good morning, everyone. I'd first like to thank Chairman Pashinsky and the members of the House Ag and Rural Affairs Committee for the invitation to join them for this meeting this morning. Since the passage of Act 71 in 2004, the horse racing industry and the gaming industry have been connected. This is why I believe it's important for these two committees to work together to see how the horse racing and gaming industry support each other and the many positive effects that they can have on this Commonwealth. I'd also like to thank the Ag Committee staff for their hard work in putting this meeting together. Thanks as well to the testifiers who have agreed to meet with us today. And with that, I'll pass it over to my chairman, Russ Timon. Thank you.
Good morning, everyone, and thank you all for attending today. I've got a half a dozen racetracks, a couple decades, and a few billion dollars that have been invested in the racehorse industry. and I'm very interested in hearing from anybody, everybody, on how successful that's been and anything that we need to do to address any concerns going into the future. Thank you.
And with that, Mr. Secretary, I haven't seen you in a while. Mr. Secretary and I were at the FFA breakfast this morning. And by the way, what an incredible group of young farmers and agriculturists, just a very uplifting, inspiring group of people. So, Mr. Secretary, I enjoyed your presentation there and looking forward to your presentation here. It's all yours, Mr. Secretary.
You've got a high threshold for pain. He was good. He's going to heaven. It's good.
Mr. Chairman, thank you. And Chairman Mel and Harkins and Diamond, thank you. for joining forces here between ag and gaming to talk about a really critical issue And thank you for including the Department of Agriculture in this discussion I certainly appreciate your willingness to examine the current and future state of horse racing industry in Pennsylvania. You have my testimony. I'll just give you a quick summary of that. Pennsylvania has long been a home to a proud and storied racing industry built on generations of raiders and horsemen and trainers and farmers whose work has been deeply woven into the fabric of Pennsylvania and agriculture. We can also be proud of a Commonwealth vision and actions to sustain the industry. Through Act 71 of 2004 and later Act 114 of 2016, combined, they have been transformative, providing stability and predictable funding sources for the racing industry. These decisions did not simply preserve horse racing in Pennsylvania. They reinvigorated it, and with it, our entire equine industry. However, 22 years on, the world in which Act 71 was written has changed significantly, and as a result, the racing and breeding industry is experiencing significant parimutuel and slot revenue declines. There are many factors that have converged to create this dilemma, certainly competition, technology, gaming, evolution, and demographic changes among them. The reality is that the horse racing industry is facing long-term effects from these changes, and that requires a new business model with innovative thinking that operates certainly within the available funds that we have. This testimony examines these issues without judgment on the solution. Rather, it is to elevate the concerns and to make clear that the horse racing industry is a strategic partner in the Commonwealth agricultural economy, serving as an economic multiplier with reach that extends across farms and breeders and veterinarians and countless others whose livelihoods are dependent on the health of this industry. From the department and the racing commission's perspective, it's important that the path forward be guided by a clear long-term vision for economic stability and sustainability. It's also imperative that the horse racing industry lead the way on charting this path forward for Pennsylvania racing. With thoughtful collaboration and forward-thinking leadership, there is genuine opportunity to reimagine what success in horse racing and the industry can look like in a changing marketplace to ensure that it continues to thrive for generations to come. So thank you for the opportunity to share. Our perspective here is a department and a commission. I look forward to continuing engagement with you and the committees and our industry partners. Thank you.
Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary. Just so that everyone's aware, we do have two testifiers that, due to circumstances, will not be here. So we do have a little bit more time available. If there's any questions or comments you want to share with Secretary Redding, I'll let the floor open. All right, I'll start it. I only have 50 questions now. Sure. The most important thing I think that you are trying to get across to everyone is that we need innovative models. The bottom line is we had a system that started off and grew dramatically provided incredible dollars and entertainment economic growth here to Pennsylvania and so on But things have changed We have different devices out there now. The electronics are incredible. I can't even imagine what AI and all the various forms of electronic communication and stuff that we have out there. So I'm looking for that innovation. We are all looking for that innovation. We have to be creative. And the one thing that I'd like to say is there are no bad suggestions. And bear me out for a minute. So we may all have ideas, and maybe our idea alone isn't going to solve the problem. But together, we're going to solve the problem. And that's what we must do because we have this vital industry. So if there's any comments that you want to go on further regarding that innovative idea and that strategic plan that we have to come up with.
Yeah, Mr. Chairman, I mean, what I was trying to express, I mean, I guess two things, primary things. One is that collectively we've built an industry that is amazing in many ways, right, for the jobs it creates, I mean, the lands that it keeps and quality of life and economics. Make your list. And we should be reminded of that. We've really done something significant in Pennsylvania to make sure that the racing industry is both at the time sort of stabilized. But you look at its growth over the last 20-plus years, and I think the things that we were envisioning in Act 71 have been realized. Coupled with, I think, all of the other forms of gaming have put a downward pressure on the pair mutual side. And that is creating this tension between we've built this really important and impressive industry. At the same time, we're caught with all of the other initiatives that we have taken to create economic opportunity and other forms of gaming that have come really at the expense of horse racing. So therein lies the tension point that we have built it. How do we sustain it? And we have to think very creatively about how do you do that? I don't have the answer per se. The commission doesn't. But I think we have to know that it's something that, as you'll hear in the testimony today, there are many, many beneficiaries of this, to include the Commonwealth. So how do we do that? We have to do it together. We need the tracks at the table. We need the casinos at the table. We need the folks who are part of that conversation at the table to help us figure out, like, what's the path forward? Because there's too much at risk not to have a strategic plan.
perfectly said and that's why we're starting here with the equine industry and this is phase one what do we need to do in that area to again sustain it build it let it grow then we're going to have to have meetings with our casinos and all that industry as well to hear that side of their of the equation and then put all that together for that innovative plan so this is this is the beginning of the race, shall we say, to make sure that we try to find those answers. So please, everyone out there, keep in mind our doors open for any kind of new and innovative ideas that we may have to pursue in order to make sure we can sustain this incredible industry.
Chairman, I would just add one final point. I mean, I'm looking at Chairman Dan Mao, and I think the pieces that, for me, I think about the land that been preserved the land that open space and productive open space as a result of the racing and equine industry and you know how many horses are you know are stabled here that are bred here that are foaled here They're the things that when I think about what Acts 71 was envisioning doing, it created economic opportunity. But it's got to look at the land and the related activity that occurs on that land and with those people. And I think Hannover Shue is a great example of that, not alone. But every time I think of what's at risk, I think of that because it motivates us then to think about if you like that, how do you retain that? And that's about a lot of activity that's in harmony and synchronized in different ways, but spawned by what we do here and what we've done through Act 71. Very well said.
Representative Krupa?
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thank you, Mr. Secretary, for being here this morning. Can you elaborate a little bit on the Pennsylvania breeding programs that we have? I'm assuming that that's on a decline at this point. Are we doing anything to incentivize or prioritize breeding programs right here in Pennsylvania? Because I know that we have a rich history with respect to the breeding programs.
Yeah, and thank you, Representative, for the question. Because I think it goes to the very core of what this discussion is about, right? to the breeding programs. There are. I'll be respectful of those who are testifying today to talk further about what those breeding programs are. But yeah, I mean, we have it. It's certainly been under pressure. There are less breeding than it was and what was envisioned. So how do we hang on to that, I think, is part of this conversation about how do you incentivize? And I think it fits inside this new model, because I'm hoping that folks think about what we do. But then where do you want to put the emphasis? If you like the open space, if you like the breeding, if you like the residual sort of activity of economics around those farms and enterprises, that we should support that through the program. But thank you.
Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is probably more of a comment, and I don't want to go too deep into it because we have other testifiers that I'm sure are going to say pretty much one about the same. and there's not one person sitting in this room that doesn't realize what I'm about to say, but to keep the breeding and racing industry alive and well in this Commonwealth is of the utmost importance because of the ancillaries that are involved with it. I'm looking at one of my constituents who sells a, and maybe even straw, I'm not sure about that one, to Hanover Shule. that's 6,000 acres by the way of prime land that's open space for breeding 6,000 acres and not that I have anything wrong with Pennsylvania moving forward with building and construction but the last thing I really want to see is someone that grew up in the horse racing industry I don't want to see development on those 6,000 acres let that go somewhere else without saving the horse racing industry and the breeding industry, we lose that. And I, as well as most everyone in this room, would much rather see horses out there running around than blacktop. That being said, yes, the gaming industry was created. I've been here a long time, and it was created for property tax relief and the horse industry, the equine industry. Thank you. And since then, there's been so many legislators that wanted to dip their fingers into that pie and pull out a big old slice for themselves. And we got to make sure that doesn't happen. We got to protect this. And when we create, and I'm sure it's going to happen, it's not under, not in ag committee, it'll be in gaming. But there's going to be a day when there's going to be a tax levied on other types of gaming, skill games to be exact. I don't know what it is or when it will be. It's not like, again, it's not my bailiwick, but we've got to make sure a piece of that pie goes into this industry. That being said, if you want to elaborate on that, go ahead. It's just my feelings, my thoughts.
Well, I think your top-line point about being mindful of what's been built, right, that there are certainly the tangibles that you can count. I mean, it's the foals, it's the acres, it's the bales. There's a lot of intangibles, right, that we put a high price on in terms of what we appreciate in terms of open space and quality of life that has been in part made possible by the equine operations in the state and then certainly furthered and supported by the public actions we've taken through Act 71. So I think we need to think about those connections and things we stated as values when the legislation was created. And there's no denying it's been incredibly successful. Gaming generally, as a category, continues to be successful. But it's the tradeoff inside of what the new gaming forms are that are creating the downward pressure on racing. So I think as a committee and certainly for all of us in the administration and the ag community, concerned about that downward pressure because there's a point there where you lose it if you're not careful. because it's not going to stay there just because you and I like it. It'll stay there if people see opportunity in it. And I think that's an important reminder for us as we've built these things is to be mindful it's going to take some resources to protect them.
Once again, perfectly said, we're looking for that balance. We're out of balance right now. And I know that we're going to be able to come up with the proper courses of action in order to deal with it. Representative Mahaffey.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Secretary Redding, it's great to see you.
Good to see you. Thank you.
Thank you for being here and testifying. We talk about this quite a bit, you and I, and we had this opportunity. I lost the horse farm right aside of my house. It's now no longer, of course, a thoroughbred farm because there is no stability in this industry right now because of what has happened. The money that has gone away as far as the horseman's fund and the lack, we just never kept up with it and should have continued to fund that because without stability, you can't get it. Chairman Mao said it great, 6,000 acres, Hanover Shoe, great place, been there, 300 young foals running around. It's great. But we also have people that have six acres raising one or two foals, and they're in this for the same reasons. And that, to me, is a small, small business person trying to make it. And this industry is not easy. It is a hard industry to maintain and stay in, and you see people bounce in and out of it because why? We have no stability. So my question back to you is, Department of Ag, we always talk about Kentucky. We hear about Kentucky. Kentucky's about horses. We could be better than Kentucky. If this General Assembly would do it right, we can be better than Kentucky. We have the land we have the resources and we have the innovations and the tracks around to do this from the Salkies to the Thoroughbreds whatever that may be and even the standard bred industries and what they do as far as other kinds of horses not even in the racing industry So what is Kentucky doing better than us, and how are they doing things? And do you reach out to your partners in Kentucky, in the ag industry, and what are they doing that we may be able to model or things that we can do in these other states that are accepting and helping their horse racing industry? Thank you.
Yeah, Representative, thank you, and it's a great question. You know, so Kentucky does a lot of things right. I mean, I say it all the time that there's not another state that I'd want to farm in or be part of agriculture than Pennsylvania, right? The diversity is our blessing. So it's equine, it's dairy, it's all those other things, but specific inside racing. I mean, they have put racing at the very, very top of their list of priorities, right? So number one, right, it's got to be a priority. Two, a very heavy emphasis on breeding, how to incentivize breeding. I mean, they're sort of the leader in that area. For us, I mean, I would just argue that that's probably not because of the breeder programs and the way they're structured. That's something that I would put on the priority list for this vision, And the strategic plan is you've got to invest in the breeding side, right? And then give preference for those horses that are foaled in that state and carry the label, if you will, the brand of Kentucky. You have to carry the brand to Pennsylvania. And that's a piece for me that I just don't think we've ever sort of captured a few exceptions. But I think about Santa Bread's got a brand. and the thoroughbred, you know, we struggle a little bit just to have that type of similar brand as we have in the Santa Cruz side, in my opinion, but also in the state. The state's emphasis on that has to be higher. And my last thing is farm show. There was a disease going around in horses. We heard they weren't going to be there. What is the Department of Ag doing right now to combat that and help out the equine industry? Yeah, so thank you again. You've got a good memory. But just to say, yeah, I think we're a livestock-dependent state. There are diseases, whether it's the high-path AI in the poultry, the equine infectious anemia in equine that we're dealing with. We're fine at the moment, right? So, again, important lesson in that, just how transient the populations are, where they've been, what they've been in contact with, what gets carried back home. And then, of course, the control areas we've got to set up and the tough decisions we have to make about exhibition like Farm Show.
Indulge me real quick, one quick. We move a lot of horses around in this industry. I mean, they're racing outside of PA because we don't have enough racing going on right here in PA because of the monies and all that. So, you know, this hiccup that was there, this hurts them, right, because we're trying to figure out how to not to spread this disease. But at the same time, their industry is hurting because they're trying to get to other racetracks so they can actually make money. Right.
Thank you, Representative.
Representative Sappy.
Thank you, Chairman. Thank you, Secretary, for being with us today. I know you've had a busy week. I just want to underscore the importance of the industry and to also underscore the concept of and, not or. It's our family motto back home. But in Chester County we have a tremendous amount of breeding happening And we also five minutes from the Delaware border and 15 minutes from the Maryland border And we are frequently under threat of this industry leaving Pennsylvania So leaving, you know, the breeding leaving Pennsylvania means that the veterinarians at Penn Vet could potentially be leaving Pennsylvania. The mechanics, I mean, everything that has been listed here today could be leaving our state. And so this is something that we really need to invest in. So again, it's not and, or it's not or, it's and. We need to protect both, but the breeding really needs to be protected here in the state. So I really appreciate your
support here. Yeah, Representative, I think, you know, just to your point of, you know, we have to think through like the ripple effects. It's easy to identify the open space and the horse and the owner and the breeder, but it's all of those other sort of industries that are beneficiaries that I think are, again, some of the intangibles that I speak of, that it's hard to identify them, but they're there, right? They're the hardware store, it's the feed dealer, it's the veterinarian, it's make your list. And that is really what has been spawned by what we did with Act 71, and I think what's at risk if you don't act.
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Secretary. Any other questions? We'll be moving on. Mr. Secretary, thank you very much once again. The purpose of us being here is coming together, collaborate, and try to find those answers so we can continue to make Pennsylvania proud of this racing industry. Great. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary.
Thank you.
It's truly a pleasure working with you. And I mean, we are very fortunate to have you.
Yeah. Honour is mine.
Thank you. No. Thank you so much. All right, our second testifier is Jay Arntz, owner of Arntz Brothers. Jay, we had the pleasure of riding in the elevator together. Well, it's all yours.
To make sure the mic is on, push that button. Is it green?
Yep, it's green.
There we go.
It's all yours.
My name's Jay Arntz. I'm the president of Orange, Hay, and Green. We live in our main farms in Littlestown. In case you don't know where Littlestown is, right below Gettysburg. We farm about, with everything together, about 3,500 acres. Probably 140 to 60 of its alfalfa. We have 600 acres of wheat, which we grow that much wheat to supply enough straw to the Annabur's shoe farms. So every bale of our straw goes to Hanover Shoe Farms, and every bale of our hay either goes to the shoe farms or several trailer loads come to Harrisburg for the sale at the end of October, beginning of November. And the horse industry has helped us grow drastically over the years by giving us extra support of income. And like today's world, corn and soybeans are not nearly as profitable as they once were. All of our inputs are just through the roof. Hay, you can plant and not have to reseed that for four years, sometimes six years. That cuts back on our inputs. It still takes fertility, but not near what other crops do. So that dramatically helps our income and our cash flow and helps keep us more diversified because in agriculture you really need to be diversified So the Hanover Shoe Farms, it was like 1975 when we started supplying the shoe farms with pay and straw and it's just growing from there. Sorry.
How has the industry, because of a certain amount of decline, affected your business?
Well, just to hand it over and learn, we don't supply near the amount of tons that we did back in the 70s because their feeding practices changed. Obviously, labor is always an issue, so they don't pin the horses up like they used to or they burnt through more hay and straw. They feed it in the field and let the horses run more. So that drastically cut back the tonnage. We still supply roughly 1,000 ton of grass hay and 500 ton of alfalfa. And I think it's somewhere around 1,500 ton of straw just for the horses that they still have.
Wow.
So it's helped us. If it wouldn't be for that industry and the income that we receive from that industry, we would never have been able to purchase the land that we have throughout those years. So it's been a huge asset for us. And, of course, that decline is definitely affecting you. And not only the own hay that we grow ourselves, we have, I think it's 28 other farms that we buy hay and straw from. And on those 28 farms, there's, I think, an average of three men on each farm. And probably, I figured it right, it's like 750 acres of land from each of those 28 farms. So it's not just us that's benefit. It's spread out. We buy it from them and sell it to the shoe farms.
Okay.
That's how that all transpires. And, again, that's why it's imperative.
That's why it's imperative that we find these answers.
Yes.
Because it's not just our farm.
It goes spread out. And Russell mentioned earlier, like, they don't feed oats like they used to, but they have a feed mill supplying pellets. So that's affecting some other farm somewhere because the pellets probably have oats in them. I'm not sure what all, maybe some soybean meal to make the pellets for these horses as well. So it spreads out and all the supplies and everything else. It goes out a long ways.
Once again, another example of how many people don't realize what the effects are until, you know, the whole thing collapses. So once again, we're here to try to gather all the information and then come together and find solutions and make sure we not just preserve this, but make it even better. How about any questions?
Representative Krupa. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for being here today. I come from a farming background, and I know just in the last few days I called my husband to say, hey, you better buy fertilizer. Take a good look at what we need, and I think that what's going on on the global scene between... between the fertilizer issues, between the cost of diesel skyrocketing. What are your immediate concerns? How do you plan for the unknown? And I know this just doesn't apply to you. It applies to all our farmers. But what's your immediate concern for this year, and how are you planning on addressing that?
We purchased quite a few of our inputs before the price increase. The only thing that we don't have locked in is some of the nitrogen that goes on the wheat crop, and that's already inflated at $150 a ton, and we do not buy diesel fuel ahead. So everybody knows that's up at least $1.50 a gallon. So we do no-till almost everything. so we're very fuel efficient on our farm. We try to be as good for the bay as we can as well. We no-till and cover crop a lot of stuff.
I can't imagine, did you say it was 3,500 acres?
Yes.
Do you have an estimate on how many gallons of diesel you use per year?
It's okay. If I had to make a guess, probably 6,000 to 7,000 gallons.
Yeah.
Probably in the neighborhood of two gallons of the acre.
Any other questions?
Representative Mao? Thank you, Jay, for testifying. You're a good constituent of mine, and I want you to keep doing exactly what you're doing for generations to come. Yeah, Representative Grupo went on the diesel fuel, asked you about that and a few other things, but you also have equipment on that farm, don't you? Unless you can work on that equipment yourself, you've got to hire people from whatever dealer, send somebody out, the job there. Somebody needs to make the parts that he's going to bring out. somebody needs to operate the building he operates out of, the tentacles go far and deep with the agriculture industry, and you're one piece of it, a nice large piece of it, especially in our neck of the woods. But, I mean, if you had to take a wild guess at just how many, and I've said this word before, ancillary jobs are connected, starting with the equine industry, the horse racing industry, the breeding industry across Pennsylvania. You're one piece, but look how many people you have to deal with that their jobs depend on somebody like you. If you had to take a guess, how many different people do you deal with on an annual basis that part of their job is supplied by you?
Not direct, but indirect.
Does it go into the hundreds or thousands?
It would have to be into the hundreds at minimum. You think about just the equipment. Like you said, we can't work on everything ourselves. So you have the mechanic. You have the guy at the parts counter. You have the salesman that sold you the equipment. You have the owner of the dealership. We help pay for all that stuff by our purchases. And it all still trans back into the horse industry Yeah that what we got to make That the point we got to get across to every senator
every House member, that this industry is so important to Pennsylvania, to have it fail would mean that literally across the spectrum, hundreds of thousands of jobs would probably go away. And that's the important part. So I think you and I are both on the same page there. Thank you so much for your coming up here today.
No problem. Good old Adams County and testifying.
Appreciate it very much.
I will mention that we own 14 farms and 12 of them are preserved.
12 of them are what?
Preserved.
Preserved.
Thank you for that.
Yes. Appreciate that very much. Thanks for the preservation board. yes they are important thank you chairman any other questions thank you very much oh we do no no okay thank you very much Mr. Arntz and for all your good work and please tell all those that you're with that we do appreciate it very much thank you our next presenter is Kathleen Demasi Kathleen come on up president of the Pennsylvania Thoroughbred Horseman's Association welcome is that make sure the green light is on yeah there you go
Apologies, Chairman. I don't actually think that the green light is on.
Okay. Now it is.
Okay. So can you hear me now? Okay. So, yes. So, again, I wanted to thank everybody here today for giving us this opportunity to speak. And, again, thank you, Chairman Pashinsky, for all your years of service and happy retirement in the future. So thank you very much.
Thank you. It's been my honor.
Believe me.
Well, we really appreciate it.
I am Kathleen DeMassi. I am the president of the Pennsylvania Thoroughbred Horsemen's Association. We have about 2,500 people that we represent. I am the first woman that was elected as the president, and I'm also in the Parks Hall of Fame and the first woman in the Parks Hall of Fame. So I've been doing this about 40 years.
Are we going to get your autograph?
I want your autograph. So just to give you a little bit of background for me, I come from an agricultural background.
I grew up on a farm. My family still has a farm today. And my husband and I had started a partnership group. So we have been breeding in the Commonwealth for about 35 years. So not only am I a trainer, so I run a business. I have about 60 horses in my stable. But that doesn't include broodmares. We have about 20, 25 of them. And we also have horses that are at different various farms that are getting ready, preparing to come to the racetrack. So I'm talking about over 100 horses probably that I am directly responsible for. But as we spoke earlier, it's far reaching. So those horses a lot of those broodmares are on farms in the Commonwealth And we have over the years stood two stallions in the Commonwealth We actively have one standing now So just to give you a little background and I was doing a little bit of the numbers of like what we spend I would say, on average, we're talking about over $200,000 in feed and hay per year. And as far as our broodmare program, we're spending about $200,000 probably there, as well as another $150,000 plus probably on veterinary care. And then when you talk about even from the racetrack side of it, you know, that's probably another $180,000 to $200,000 that is being spent on veterinary care. I mean, these horses get everything that they possibly need. And furthermore, like we were talking about with the veterinary care, like we've had to send several horses, you know, over the years. You've got a sick foal. It goes into New Bolton. Those veterinarians there are amazing. And it's just if we didn't have that. And, again, it's all part of Act 71 and giving us this opportunity to invest in the breeding program here because I don't frankly think we would have invested as much as we have. and then you know the people that I have working for me I have about on average about 30 people working for me those people are there four o'clock in the morning they know their horses inside out and backwards it's like their kids you know they'll come to us uh you know so and so he didn't eat up his dinner last night you know these people have invested their lives their their families into Pennsylvania. I have several people that actually have bought homes over the years. They never would have. They would have been renting till the cows came home, but they ended up buying a home because they knew there was stability in us being at the racetrack. You know, and I remember when they were getting ready to get a loan or something for the house, and I said, don't worry, we're here. I'm not going anywhere, so I wasn't going anywhere because you guys have made us be able to be, you know, stable. But there has been a lot of instability, and those years really hurt the breeding program. I mean, there was farms that were built, put a lot of money into them. They were built up, and then all of a sudden we're on this rocky slope where the money's being taken away, and several of those left. So I do agree. We have to figure out a solution to bring everybody together. Part of what our organization has done is we started a program called Turning for Home. That rehomes the horses off the racetrack. We have over 4,500 horses in that program. We are on target to have rehomed 5,000 horses by the end of the year. And those horses go on to be show horses, event horses, dressage horses, even therapy horses, the ones that maybe have an injury that they couldn't continue to be ridden. Referring to Chester County, I mean, you've got the mecca of eventing right there. I mean, that is an amazing group of people there in that community that, again, they're always looking for those kind of quality horses. So I can't tell you enough how much that is an important part of our program because rehoming those horses, we know that people are going to want them. Also one of the things that we do is we have a scholarship program that we started as part of our program at the PTHA And we on target to try to up that ante as far as the scholarship So we invest back into our community. And that has all been because of Act 71. We wanted to make sure that they have an opportunity. I also train for a lot of breeders in the state. And several of my breeder owners have actually purchased farms in the last 10 years. So we're not just talking about like one little thing. We're growing and growing. And I'm one spoke in this entire wheel of this industry. So that's what I'm spending. That's what I'm doing. And when you ask about how many people are probably directly or indirectly involved, I would say it's probably upwards of around 1,000. because when you start talking about the breeding program and the farriers and, like you say, the vanning supply, you know, the vanning shippers, and all of the supplies that we go in, the equipment, the mechanics, everything, it's just far-reaching. I would like to just mention, too, that over the years I've had several people that worked for me that, you know, came from different countries, And they not only got their citizenship, but they ended up sending their kids to college. One of them is a doctor. And it's just gratifying to me to know that our industry was able to continue to let people raise their families, their taxpayers, and be able to be a part of this entire wheel. So I think that's it for me if you have any questions. And I would like to add back to the green space thing. Because, like I said, I come from an agricultural background, green space is incredibly important to me. So the fact that that could possibly be vulnerable to losing all of that land would be, to me, devastating. Thank you very much.
Yeah, we are gifted here in Pennsylvania with magnificent land and water and resources and so on. and once again making sure that we respect that. Also the magnificence of the horse. I always enjoyed riding horses. We used to have a place where you would go on a trail, and I got to know the owner who was around my age, one of the sons, and we used to have a blast on the horse. It was just great. And what they're able to do, so that care and that love. Yeah. And it starts when you're young. Yes. Yep. And it takes a lot of work. You got to love it. There is no question about that. So we appreciate it. Questions, comments, Representative Diamond. Kathleen, thank you for your testimony today. Besides financial stability, what other things do we need to do from the Commonwealth point of view to help this industry remain stable and grow and remain competitive with other entertainment options in Pennsylvania?
Well, I think as it was mentioned before today, I mean, we were, you know, the slot revenue is down and you have all of these artificial opportunities to gamble and there's only so many gambling dollars to go around so I think that's going to be a big part of it and I think that's going to help our industry and it's going to help the state in general because like I say all of these things all are interwoven. Yeah we need balance again you know we're taxing certain things and as a result those tax dollars then are utilized appropriately hopefully, to engage and help Pennsylvanians in one shape, form, or another. Right now, we're out of balance. So you have the skill games and all that other stuff that's going on, and we need that balance. So we've been trying on our side from the House of Representatives. We're trying to work with our senators to see whether or not we can get something happening there. But once your testimony is key because you're living that job. You're living these circumstances. So, you know, what you're telling us is really important that hopefully we're able to find that pathway to improve it.
Any other questions? Chairman Mao, I should have known. I've been here a long time. Somebody ought to sell me a roll of duct tape so I can just keep this shut. All right, time's up. I'm very happy. You know, it is amazing. Not for anything. I'll just say this out there. This is a great committee because there's no partisanship here because we all care about the same thing in the same way. So there are no Republicans and Democrats here. OK, we, you know, I just have to throw that out there. We get along great. It's my co-chair. And yeah, we so it works. Yes, going on to what I was going to say. Back before I became chairman of agriculture committee on the Republican side, I could carry more than one committee, one of which I always carry because I represent the Adams County, Gettysburg, big tourism area. I always sat on tourism. And I used to say back then, you know, it's really great when people go from this part of the state to that part of the state and spend money there and then they go back home. But you know what the real big win is? is when people come here from other states, drop their money off, and then go back home. Okay? That's the real big win. In your industry, how much comes into, and this is where I'm really lacking in knowledge, how much comes in business, money, however you want to categorize it, how much comes into your industry from out of state and gets spent here?
I don't know what the percentage is, but just as an example of what I do, because we run a partnership, many of the people are not in this state at all that are involved in horse racing. And they come to the track to see their horse, or they may even be involved in some of the mares that we're breeding. So a lot, a lot of the people are coming from out of state and putting their dollars into this state and supporting racing, supporting breeding.
And you're thoroughbred, correct?
I'm thoroughbred, yes.
And you guys still have live cover, is that correct?
Absolutely, live cover.
Okay, so that's a little different than what I'm used to in the standard bread industry. So being that you're on a breeding farm as well.
Well, right. So our mares have to stay in the state of Pennsylvania to be eligible, to have their foals be eligible for the breeding program.
Correct.
So we spending probably another on board alone just for those mares to be in the state of Pennsylvania And what percentage do you think of people in the thoroughbred industry send their mares here to be bred and spend the money here
with a horse that you might have standing?
Right. I don't know those percentages, and I believe people will be speaking that could probably answer that better than I could.
And I think that that is something that we really need to do, is continue to stimulate the breeding program to bring more people to this state because we don't want them leaving to Maryland. We don't want them leaving to Delaware. I mean, this is an important, I mean, agriculture is the number one thing here in the state. So, I mean, we can't let that go. We can't let that green space go. And horse breeding, whether it's standard bred or thoroughbred, it is far-reaching. It just goes on and on and on. And like you say, when you're a young person and you get around horses and you get that energy, not only that, but they just have a healing quality. I mean, they're using horses a lot more in, you know, veteran-assisted programs and PTSD, and some of our horses actually from Turning for Home are doing that program too. So it's a whole cyclical thing and, you know, very symbiotic. So we need that stability because I tell you, when we did not have that stability, I think there was a lot of people that exited the state, and it's been hard to get them back. Yeah, yeah. We just need to put a big push on the people in Kentucky to bring all their mayors up here.
Well, they are starting to.
Good. Good. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
And thanks for letting us. Thank you so very much. Appreciate it. Great. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, I'm sorry. Representative Mahaffey.
No, that's fine. Kathleen, congratulations on all the things that you've accomplished over the last 40 years. And I got the opportunity to meet you when I went backside at parks to see what's going on back there. It's pretty impressive. But I think my question is because you're an owner, a breeder, a trainer, and what do you get into a horse before it ever gets to race its first race?
Now, I'm glad because I'm glad to hear the moans and groans because I have a pretty good idea. But I want everybody to understand this isn't something that comes easy. And that's if it gets to that track and breaks gate and is going. But from the time you cover that horse, that mare, to the time that, you know, two-year-old gets to race, how much money do you think you have into that horse? I would say easily $50,000.
There you go. Easily. And some of them may be more than that.
Like we had one foal that got very sick and had to go to the clinic and stay there and that racked up about 10 grand there. So, you know, that, you know, that easily $50,000. But that's an, that's an average. And you can, like you said, you can get even more into whatever that may be, but, and that's a three-year process, right? Yeah.
From covering it to, to that's born till two years of training and getting it to where it needs to be that it's able to, if, if it's able to race. And there's how many horses do you think percentage, and if you don't know, that's fine, actually make it to the racing industry?
I think it's actually a ridiculously low number. I want to say like 7% or something. I don't know. I don't want to talk out of turn, but I believe it's a pretty low number when you look at the whole, you know, the whole time. And that's because they could get sick. They just don't make it. It's just one of the things that happens in this industry. But thank you.
Thank you for everything that you do.
Well, thank you.
and thanks again for everything here. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you so much Our next testifier Brian Sanfrontello Executive Secretary of the Pennsylvania Horse Breeders Association How are you?
Fantastic.
That a boy.
Good to see you.
I haven't seen you in a while. When you get to be my age, if you wake up, that's great. What's that, 48?
Yeah.
It's all yours, Brian. All right.
Thank you, Chairman, Committee members, and staff. My name is Brian Sanfratello, Executive Secretary, Pennsylvania Horse Breeders Association, and I've had the pleasure of working with many of you here for many years. And it's been really fantastic because, as Chairman Mao had said,
there's no party lines here. Everybody's working together
and for the same goal. And again, most of you have been here for quite some time. Some of you have not. And if you have my handout in front of you, if you go to the page two of that handout Now you're not going to give us a test, are you, Brian?
No, no test.
No test. We need your help with this because, as you know, in 2017, Act 114, Act 42, expanded gaming and put the Racehorse Development Fund into a trust. And there's just two lines that I want you to read on page two that states the daily assessments that are collected or received by the department are not funds of the Commonwealth, are not funds of the Commonwealth. And the Commonwealth shall not be rightfully entitled to any money under these sections. I don't know how many people that write articles or ask questions and say to me, these are state tax dollars. They're not state tax dollars. They're casino dollars. So, like I said, I need your help, and when you hear that, to be able to set the record straight. I'd like to show you that raids on the fund have a direct correlation to the number of mayors bred. If you go to page three of that handout, what we've done, we've plotted out since 2004 to the present and the national ranking among states where Pennsylvania lies and the transfers from the Racehorse Development Trust Fund. So in 2004, when Act 71 came out, we were breeding approximately 1,000 mares. You'll notice that as we moved down from 2004 to 2009, that number went to 1,782. And the reason for that is many of the stakeholders put together the best breeding program in the country Better than Kentucky better than Maryland better than New York You'll notice on the right-hand column that transfers from the Racehorse Development Fund started in 2009. There were four years in which money went into the general fund of approximately between $45,000 and $48,000. You'll also notice at the same time, we were ranked number six in the country. That went down as you go to 2015 from $1,782, excuse me, $1,782 mares bred to $708 mares bred. And you'll notice on the right-hand side that the transfers continued to come. In 2016, Secretary Redding referred to the Racehorse Industry Reform Act, in which the Racehorse Development Fund was put into a trust. you'll notice at that time breeders again said you know what we think the money may be there so if we're investing and our product is not going to generate a return until four years down the road we have to breed the mare and the horses don't run until they're an average three i mean there's some run at two, but on average three. You can see this was exciting to the breeders. We have a trust now. And you'll notice that from 16 to, excuse me, 19, that it went from 554 mares bred to 868 mares bred. I was asked by the Global Symposium on Racing in 2019 to be on a panel because they couldn't believe it. They said, what's happening in Pennsylvania? Pennsylvania was up over 50% in mare's bread during that time period when the rest of the country was down 15%. It was a simple answer. Everybody's on the same page. The state, legislators, horsemen, breeders, and that's why it grew the way it did. We had a stallion farm, Northview, PA, who built in Peach Bottom our biggest stallion farm on the thoroughbred side. they spent six million dollars in land and in buildings to give us quality super quality stallions that raised that that were part of this being raised from that time as you noticed on the transfers down the bottom they're starting to be less and less and Most of it is the testing portion of it. But you can still see, if you look at the budget, and believe me, I'm not picking on any party. If you look at the budget, there are still proposed raids on the fund. So, ladies and gentlemen, I need your help. that when you see proposed rates, remember, please, and pass on the word, it's not state money. The next area I wanted to cover was payments from the Thoroughbred Breeding Fund. every Wednesday money transfers to the horseman's groups from the Resource Development Trust Fund they use it for purses they use it for pension they use it for health care and they pay that money out most of the time as soon as the as soon as the tests clear from the races. It wasn't ever set up like that on the breeder's side. Our money goes to the breeding fund held by the commission. Now, we process the awards and we've been processing the awards since 1975. It goes to the commission, takes us approximately 30 days to get all that completed. It goes to the commission. The commission checks our work. Then it goes to the comptroller. The comptroller checks the commission and our work. And then it goes to the treasury. And the treasury checks everyone down the line before they give that money out. That's approximately in Pennsylvania 90 days or so before those checks are processed and given to the breeders. I can't tell you how many times I get phone calls. When am I going to get my breeder award? Maryland pays in 45 days. New York pays within a few days, depending on when they race, up to a maximum of about 60 days. And if everything's not going correctly, example, budget impasse, it even takes longer for all that to happen. we would still send up the information so it could be checked by the Commission and check by who who they want to checked by but we would have them processed and out within a 30-day period our small mom-and-pop readers of which we have quite a few of are counting on that money to come in so they can feed their horses buy hay grain vet blacksmith whatever there is no reason in the world that we should not be in control of our breeding fund money just like the money is transferred to the horsemen groups We ask you to help us achieve that goal. Finally, in order to draw investment to Pennsylvania, we need a consistent flow of revenue. It's already brought up by a couple of you. The only revenue the breeders receive is our portion of the slot revenue and 25% of what's left over from commission expenses. Slot revenue, brick-and-mortar slot revenue, down 55.5 million since 2018-19. That's about 20%. Where total gaming revenues are up 93%. When someone hears about gaming, about the revenue, they say, oh, these horsemen, they're doing fantastic. Look at all the money that's coming in. Online slot revenue up drastically. We do not get any of that revenue. So we get our little bit of slot, or whatever we get of slot revenue, and then 25% of what's left over after commission expenses. Well, when that started, that was done to replace what we used to get in our percentage of power mutual tax. And it started at about $2 million annually. Last year, we received $5,000. And next year, we were told not to expect anything because of increased expenses. So, ladies and gentlemen, we need your help to address this shortfall. Now, if you turn to page four, very simply, you can see and you know everyone's on their phones today. Number of people going to the casinos is down. This is going to continue. And you can see for the first time in 2425, the interactive slots gross revenue passed what we are getting from the Racehorse Development Trust Fund. And these numbers you see here, they're before money is taken out for raids on the fund. The last page will show you what we employ or who we employ. Kate did a great job talking about that when she was up here. Sometimes we think, well, we got a horse. We got somebody who takes care of the horse, and that's it. Well, if you look at that page, just the horse itself, there's probably 20-some-odd people involved with that horse. And that's not taking into consideration any of the ancillary businesses which we talked about. 23 jobs by our industry 1 billion in economic impact 1 million of acres of open space I'm sure you're all aware that the state flag has two horses on it. That's because our industry is agriculture. Our industry is Pennsylvania. Thank you.
Thank you, Brian. Any questions? Don't be scared. Brian's passionate.
Brett Mahaffey. Brian, thank you for your testimony and pointing out everything that we should be doing financially to support this industry. I've been around 10 years now, and I've seen it come and go. I think your height was what around in the Horseman's Development Fund, what was that, about $289 million or something of that nature at the high water mark?
Yeah, approximately.
And what are we at today?
I think this year we're going to be around 180, something like that.
So $100 million loss.
Yeah, about $100 million.
Okay. Which, again, no stability in the industry. I had the opportunity, and I guess I'm starting to pick up on this a little bit. I like this industry a lot. And it intrigues me because the industry that I'm in is very similar to this. It's similar in a way where if you don't have stability and you don't have the things you need and government has a little bit of control of that, it tanks an industry. And I'm interested in building this industry and making it better for you in this position. So I get to go to a stallion forum right down the way. Very impressive.
Extremely impressive.
And we talked about how full, you know, how long it takes and what it costs to get it to the racetrack, three years, five, four years, whatever that time frame is. When you have these guys investing and ladies investing in these farms, you said around $6 million, right? But these owners of these stallions and the cost factor, and if people from Kentucky and other states don't want to come here to breed to those stallions, and or people from Pennsylvania, because that's really where the money is,
if done right, correct?
Yes, yes.
What is their cost factors and what are they laying out
just to house that stallion for one year? And then the breeding is minimal, you know what I mean, as far as that, but the real money is where, if those foals race and win. Right.
We have incentives for stallions. if they breed to a Pennsylvania stallion, every single foal that grows and races and finishes first, second, or third in any race in Pennsylvania will receive 10% of what that foal earns. That's addition from the breeding money that we give out.
So it doesn't affect the owner. He still gets the same amount of money, or she still gets the same amount of money. And I forgot to tell you that group from Maryland that came in to invest million well when a raid of million was proposed they left They went back to Maryland. And again, like I said, I'm not picking on any party. The facts are the facts. Sorry to interrupt you. No, the question was answered well. Brian, thank you for laying that all out for us so we all understand how this industry works under that fund. We thought it was a good thing to do to lock that fund down. And unfortunately, with the ways of the Internet and all the new gambling devices and everything out there, it has hurt your industry. So I'm hoping moving forward to being in this committee, as far as the gaming oversight committee, that we are able to put together something in legislation when we do it, that it makes sure that we are taking care of this industry because this industry is part of Pennsylvania, as you said, and we're glad to have you guys here and we want to keep you here. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Representative. Any other questions? Representative Sappy.
Thank you, Chairman. Just a comment to underscore what we're dealing with here. This is kind of a dark night of the soul for Pennsylvania. We are fighting for rural Pennsylvania, and it's not just in southern Chester County where I am, but across the state. And we are facing a lot of industries that want to come into Pennsylvania that could gobble up an awful lot of land and a lot of industries that come with that. So we have to make some decisions here, and I think it's incumbent upon the committee for us to share what we're learning here today with our colleagues so that they understand. As I have for the last eight years, we've been having this conversation for eight years, that this is an industry we want and need here. Economic ecosystems will disappear if we do not fight for this. And what they get replaced with are things that we may not like in rural Pennsylvania. So we really need to consider this. So thank you so much for making the trip up here. I appreciate you all being here.
Thank you, Representative. Time is now really not on our side, so we're going to try to move this thing a little quicker. But, Brian, thank you so very much for your testimony. Once again, trying to find that balance. That's why we're having this. Your information is absolutely vital, and we will definitely work together. Representative Mahaffey, it's going to be your goal, buddy. We're going to carry you. Yeah, you're going to carry the water. All right, next. Do we have Pete here? Pete? Mr. Reif-Snyder, owner of Reif-Snyder Ag Center, is our next testifier. It's all yours, Peter.
Thank you, Chairman. Thank you for being here. Yeah, green lights on. Can everybody hear? Thank you, Chairman. Thank you, representatives, for allowing us to come up and testify. I've been a direct beneficiary, as Secretary of Agriculture Redding said, of the economic opportunity that was created by Act 71. We opened a hardware feed store in Burnville, Pennsylvania, Berks County, 1995. And 2000, one of my local farmers was a trainer. And he asked, can't you get me supplies up at Penn National? And so we became vendors, got a vendor's license, and became a vendor up at the racetrack. And... I quickly realized that the volume of horses and the volume of feed, if you want to sell horse feed, you want to go where the most horses are. And at that time, there were almost maybe 1,000 up at Penn National on the backside. And it just created volume that actually took the price of feed down for everybody else that bought it from my store, from the guy with the backyard chickens to the pet food, because I was getting a trailer load in a half a week, and about a trailer load of that was going up to Penn National on a weekly basis, about 20, 22 tons of feet. And I've had a front row seat to watch the decline. In 2007, there was a tack shop that had been on the backside since it began that we were able to purchase, and there were some good years. There's kind of an ebb and flow up at Penn National. The winter months, you would have trainers from up north. Some of the tracks, Finger Lakes, Woodbine, that close over winter, that would come down. We would actually sell more feed over the winter than we would over the summer. That has gone away. Last year, as I pointed out in my written testimony, we're down about 46 percent for the three months of December, January, and February compared to two years ago. And we really appreciate that you guys understand the ripple effect or the allied industries that are affected by that horse racing community. And I'll just share one little anecdote. We all know those things, and we're all aware of them, but sometimes it hits home. And I had a local farmer from the Wernersville area who was in my store and came back and talked to me in the office. And he said, yeah, I'm kind of beat today. He said, I was up at 2 a.m., hauled a load of corn, a tractor trailer load of corn up to Camp Hill. I said to the Purina plant up at Camp Hill, I said, why did you do that? Well, he wanted to be first in line to start unloading trucks at 6 a.m. But he left at 2, so he'd be in the front of the line, get his truck unloaded, and get back on the day. I had no idea that a trailer load of corn from Wernersville was going into the feed, and I'm hauling to Penn National Raceway. We appreciate what you guys, your understanding and what you're doing, and it impacts a lot of people. from the quality of the hay, the quality of the straw, the quality of the feed, right down to the vets and people in the backside of taking care of this Thank you for your attention Well we really appreciate this very much
and I want to make it clear that our door is open. So just because we're having this event today doesn't mean that it stops here. It's starting here. That's what this is all about. And your testimony is very important because you're living it. Any questions?
Oh, very short now, Representative. It's going to be very, very short. I've been out to see you several times now, and I just want to say I appreciate it. And I can assure you the reason for this joint hearing is because agriculture is not the committee to work on gaming, but we have gaming here. we make sure that gaming understands how important it is that the gaming revenues that were intended to take care of the equine industry stays with the equine industry. So that being said, and I know we're running short on time now, thank you so much, and hopefully I'll see you out to track again this year.
Yes, sir. I hope so, too. Thank you.
Representative, question?
Yeah, so I just want to thank you for your testimony and all the others that testified, But this is just an example of all these ancillary businesses and how far-reaching this industry really is. So the importance of the agriculture piece and that gaming does understand that piece as well. So thank you.
Thank you, Representative. Thank you very much, sir. Appreciate it. I think I would like everyone to congratulate Danelle Mock, Executive Director of the Metals Standard Owners Association. She gave birth today. So way to go, Danielle. That's right. She's not here. No, she's not going to testify. And Michael. Do we have Michael Heron here? There we go. Michael from the Pennsylvania Harness Horseman's Association, Executive Director, and Director of Racing Operations.
And I know I'm the anchor leg, so I'll be quick. We represent two tracks, one at Mohegan, Pennsylvania, up in Wilkes-Barre, Luzerne County, and the other one at Harris, Philadelphia, in Delaware County. And I'll just talk to some of the points that haven't really been touched by the other people here. At Chester, for example, we used to race 150 days every year. We're down to 110. And a lot of other tracks see the same thing. Todd over there, I'm sure he can speak to it at Penn National. But, you know, with this fund going down, that's less opportunity. And if you just do the rough math, 40 days, it's probably $6 million to $8 million that doesn't go back into the agriculture fund because we just don't have the money for the purses. Part of the fund goes to insurance and retirement Last year we spent million on insurance and retirement at our two tracks And unfortunately as we all know the cost of health insurance is not really going the right way On the breeding side, on the harness side, we have a sire stakes fund. The sire stakes fund, and it's one of the reasons it's the biggest reason why people buy horses in Pennsylvania at that sale. If that fund continues to go down, other states like Kentucky, Indiana, Ohio, New York, their sire stakes funds keep going up. Unfortunately, ours has either been stagnant or is on the way down. So these are things that are kind of ancillary that we look at. Pennsylvania fares. We have 16 county fares that we race at over the summer. And that's an opportunity for especially small breeders to race their horses at a more competitive level. And it helps the agricultural fairs throughout the county. So as I look, and it's 1058, and I'm sure everybody's got somewhere to go, that's sort of what we have on the harness side. We're just like everybody else. I know you heard mostly from thoroughbred, but we're in the same position on the harness side. So I'd be happy to take any questions.
That was an outstanding presentation. Quick. I'm the anchor guy. No, I know that we all appreciate your passion and, of course, the love of what you have there. Let me just throw this out to you. So we're losing the people coming to normal races. And I share this with everyone. I can remember my aunt and uncle, my mom and dad. That was a big thing, to go to a horse race. That was a major event. Now there's so many other things that are taking people away from those kinds of things. So we have to become creative. And just bear me up one second. You talked about those fairs. Now, those are regular average folks that normally wouldn't go to a racetrack like you would have as a gambler. So what can we do? What do we think? How do we think outside the box to attract even new audiences? And at the county fair level, a lot of it's getting – you spoke at FFA earlier, getting them, getting 4-H involved. Get them hooked when they're young. I hate to say the word hooked, but get them hooked while they're young.
One of the problems, especially at the pari-mutual tracks, is it's so easy with a phone now. It's just like betting slots. I could sit in the back of this room, and we could bet races from Hong Kong right now if you wanted to. I mean, so to get the average gambler out, a lot of them would rather just sit on their couch. The handle is still there. It's getting special events, thinking outside of the box, doing camel and ostrich racing, and silly stuff like that that draws a crowd It tough and there so many The Philadelphia market where Harris Philadelphia is the competition we have four major sports The soccer stadium right down the street There's a million things going on. And unfortunately, Sunday afternoons in the summer at Harris, we do really well. But when you're racing Thursday afternoon for the simulcast market, it doesn't quite look the same. But the handle's still there. It's just a matter of doing events to try to get people to come to the track. And weather dependent, it usually works out pretty well. And, you know, Parks does it. Penn National does it. We all do it, and you have to. I mean, without those special events to draw, and you hope those people come back. There's certain days, Kentucky Derby Day, big stakes days, where you're almost guaranteed a crowd. It's trying to get people to show up on that regular Sunday. It's been a battle. and, you know, always fresh ideas are out there to try to get more people to come to the track.
Representative Chairman Dan Mao.
I'll just say this very quick. A good friend of mine, which I'm sure a lot of people in this room know, by the name of Jim Simpson, he and I travel quite a bit together. We're old friends from a long time ago. We've been trying to figure that exact same thing out for years is how do you get people to – the interest is waning. We get that. But I've never heard about ostrich racing and camel racing, and I think that would be a wonderful thing.
We've done it. We did it at Pocono. I know they've done it at Penn National before. It's interesting. I would warn you to stay away from the front of an ostrich. Oh, yeah. Camels are okay. At the back end. Yeah, they kick a little bit. So I'd be a little fearful of them. But it's a different event. We've done donkey races. I know the Meadows does corgi races. It's just it's something different to bring people out. And really, with racing, you do have to think outside the box. We need to make it a family event.
Absolutely. How about a state representative's race? We're going to race. Absolutely. Yeah.
We got two-seated jog cars. We can get you out there. It would be a very short race. I can assure you of that. But thank you.
Absolutely. Yes, thank you very much. And the idea of feed them and they will come. You know, there's always different kinds of other attractions that we're talking about. So, again, this is the beginning of this conversation. Again, our doors are open. Please, if you have any further things that you would like to go, we're definitely right on that timeline. But reach out to us, and we're more than happy to continue this conversation. So thank you all very much. I want to thank all the members from our gaming committee to be here with us. and of course all the members of our Ag Committee. Thank you so very much. Take care now.