Ohio House and Senate Select Committees on Data Centers - 6-11-2026 - Part 2

Chairman Chavez, Chairman Holmes, members of the committee, thank you very much for the invitation for JobsOhio to participate in this important process. As the chairman said, my name is Drew Cooper. I have the privilege of leading the government affairs team at JobsOhio. I'm joined by my colleague, Dana Socie, who serves as vice president and head of economic development at JobsOhio. Today, I'll be sharing remarks that focus on JobsOhio's role in data center development, as well as some perspectives on the industry's impact to our state's economy. After my remarks, Dana and I would love to take any questions you might have. So as I believe you all are aware, JobsOhio serves as the state of Ohio's private, non-profit economic development corporation. We were founded in 2011 by the state legislature, and our mission is to work to support companies that are in Ohio by helping them grow and expand and create jobs and also attract new companies to the state. Our funding and strategies are concentrated on attracting investments and jobs from within 10 priority industry sectors. One of those targeted industries is the information technology sector, which has seen immense growth in Ohio in recent years. One example of that growth being, of course, the proliferation of data centers across the state. Data centers are also important service providers to nearly every other industry that we seek to support. Manufacturing, logistics, aerospace, finance, life sciences, and many more. So as it relates to JobsOhio's involvement with data center projects, our engagement is mostly advisory and somewhat indirect, at least compared to most of the economic development projects that we work on. That's the case because JobsOhio currently does not offer any financial incentives in support of data center projects. We've not done that in the last decade. We did incentivize one project back in 2015 with JobsOhio funds. That was Amazon Web Services' first investment in Ohio. But since then, we have not provided any direct incentives to data center projects. As Director Mihalik outlined in great detail, where JobsOhio does play a role is in the context of helping advise and provide information to the Department of Development and to the Ohio Tax Credit Authority as they are considering our state's primary incentive, as you all know very well, is the data center tax exemption. So we view our role, again, as helping to advise and share details about the potential projects that are on the table. Additionally, if requested, we invest our time, expertise, and systems to assist our regional economic development partners and local communities in coordinating with interested data center companies as we maintain relationships with all of those leaders. So as it relates to the industry more broadly, this committee has heard testimony from operators and stakeholders regarding the importance of these investments to future industries, national security, and Ohio's economy. Our written testimony, which you have before you, has some additional industry information and statistics. I'm not going to get into that verbatim in the interest of time, but hope that you review those at your convenience. So looking beyond the data centers themselves, JobsOhio's pursuit of investments from within the data center supply chain is yielding momentum and job creation in the advanced manufacturing sector around the state. These supply chain companies provide the power, cooling, fabrication, and infrastructure that make data centers possible. We wanted to highlight a few examples of companies with whom we've done work to help support their growth. You have several in the written testimony, but I'll just highlight a couple. Vertiv, who I know the committee heard from recently, has emerged as a leader in data center infrastructure nationally and recently announced the largest job creation project in southern Ohio since Jobs Ohio inception with the creation of 500 jobs in Senator Wilkins district in Ironton which we very excited about Another example is a company called Wastrofo Wastrofo is an Italian manufacturer of transformers and other components that are critical to the energy industry. They recently announced a significant investment in Senator Blackshear's district in Trotwood, where they'll be manufacturing transformers and other key energy components that are in high demand from within the data center industry. A third example is a small business. I actually had the chance to tour recently in Senator Chavez's district in Athens called AC Green Metalworks. It's a woman-owned steel fabrication company that has seen immense growth and been able to invest in their business through support from JobsOhio to help expand their ability to respond to demand that they're receiving from a number of industries, including the data center industry. So we hope these examples serve as a reminder that this supply chain presents an opportunity for communities across the state to capitalize on the growth of the data center industry, regardless of whether they're in proximity to an actual data center development. So in conclusion, we applaud the committee's thoughtful and deliberate approach to collecting information regarding this important industry. Jobs Ohio affirms prior testimony that's been heard by the committee that has outlined the benefits that these investments can bring to our state. We recognize that policymakers are appropriately examining questions related to energy infrastructure, community impacts, and long-term competitiveness. Our perspective is that Ohio's challenge is not whether to engage with the industry, but how to position Ohio to capture its economic benefits while addressing legitimate community and infrastructure considerations. So with that, happy to take any questions you might have. Thank you. With one second to spare.

Thank you for being here today. So I guess my question revolves around the structure of Jobs Ohio and how you recruit or get engaged in the data center development projects from the get-go,

Thank you. Follow-up, Chair. Thank you. So I guess my question is, it sounds as though you're coming into these projects with the developer and or operator to the local communities. Are you working as more of a mediator in that role, or are you trying to assist the developer in selling the product at the local level?

Thank you. One more, Chair. Thank you. Thank you for that clarification. So can you tell me, does Jobs Ohio ever sign an NDA?

Any other questions from the committee?

Do you all look to other states when you all are advising data centers here in Ohio just to get, you know, the good and the bad, in a sense? Yeah, so through the chair of the representative, we absolutely are constantly monitoring what other states are doing. I think the word we use most often in the context of economic development is competition. Competition is fierce for investments across all industries, all sectors. And so, yeah, we're constantly looking at what other states are doing to either become more competitive or maybe policies that are being considered that will make them less competitive compared to Ohio. But, yeah, that's something we do all the time.

That's a great question. I'll take a stab, and then I'd love to have Dana give a point of view. I mean, the amount of capital through the chair of the representative, the amount of capital flowing is just remarkable. It's huge. And it seems clear that we are not going to be living in a world that is less digitally connected. It's only becoming increasingly so. And that requires, you know, when you have a thousand sensors on an EV so that it can drive autonomously, that requires computing power. And so the industries that we work with, I mentioned some of them, that rely on that computing power to do everything that they do, tells us that this industry, these facilities, are going to be of increasing importance in the coming years. Anything you want to add to that?

I will. My name is Dane Associates. I'm Vice President and Head of Economic Development for Jobs Ohio, and through the chairs to the senator. You know, painting the future of AI and what's going on in data is, you know, if you even listen to the experts, we're seeing kind of, you know, a transformational thing that maybe none of us know. But if you look at how our economy runs and our companies work, they're relying on data. used to be we'd have file cabinets full of our company data, and that has migrated to centralized data points And in some ways they don manufacture a bumper or a tire but their manufacturing floor is ones and zeros that they supply back to companies and that what allows you to get your medical records or file your taxes And so that's why we, as we saw the digital economy shift from primarily manufacture and paper to a digital economy, we felt like being relevant in the digital economy was incredibly important for Ohio's future. And so I see it continuing to be a big industry, maybe one of the biggest. and as it's been spoken about, this is an industry that has to refresh itself every 18 months to 36 months because the equipment, as opposed to a bumper factory that puts a press in for 40 years, this is a constant cycle, and I thought Jennifer Chrysler did a great job in talking about the constant part of the refresh. So I think it will grow, and I think it will continue to be active because of those aspects.

Yeah, so through the Chair to the Senator, Jobs Ohio really since its inception has not generally taken direct positions on public policy. That's an intentional choice that we've made as an organization that we didn't want there to ever be a perception that members that were advancing policies that were priorities of ours saw better outcomes. We want to be a step removed from the policy process. In terms of formally recommending policies to legislators, others, no, we have not, but we're always happy to participate in conversations and share perspectives perhaps on what other states are doing in relevant policy areas or even within the data center context. But in terms of formal testimony before committees, formally proposing solutions, that's just not something we generally do as an organization in any context.

Absolutely, yeah. Through the chair, to the senator, a couple responses to that first. Absolutely provided connections to legal advice, other resources to help communities navigate unprecedented deals, like data centers often are. You know, most communities may not need that for a 50-person manufacturing opportunity, but for these very large projects. I can think of even recent examples where communities have approached us and just said, we're in over our head here. How do we navigate this appropriately? And so we've made connections and recommendations to resources that they can avail themselves of. We are also in the process, it's good timing, of developing more or less a toolkit specific to data centers that would not be necessarily a you should accept these investments, but rather if you're approached about one of these, here are some of the things that you should think about doing. And so we're happy to work with the Department of Development. I know that was something you talked about with the director to make sure that whatever we put out is not duplicative and is in harmony with the desires of this committee and the legislature and the Department of Development. So short answer is yes. We see ourselves as playing that role and our regional partners. We try to make sure that the relationships between local leaders and our regional partners are very strong, and they often serve as a resource and a sounding board for local leaders as well.

Through the chair to the senator, that's a great question, and that is something that we see that's one of the benefits some communities have articulated to us related to data center projects is that the sewer or natural gas or electric expansions that are required can also create secondary benefits for the surrounding areas. I don't know that we've ever attempted to quantify that, Dana. I don't know if you want to share a point of view on this question. Through the chair to the senator.

So last one, I think I know the answer to this, but I'll let you guys answer. At JobsOhio since you guys have been there how many projects have you worked on where you simply didn charge someone billion and in return got a billion investment 2 percent roughly A little more Through the chair and the senator none Just curious.

I just want to note that if you guys are hearing rappers and stuff up here, the glorious light of a state legislator is choking down a vending machine lunch in between questions, so I apologize for that. Representative Workman.

Sure. So through the chair to the representative, Jobs Ohio's model is such that Jobs Ohio exists as a statewide organization located here in Columbus, but there was an intentional choice made that rather than having a Jobs Ohio Cleveland or a Jobs Ohio Cincinnati, we would contract with existing regional economic development organizations to be our representatives at the regional and local level. So there are seven of those organizations. One of those is One Columbus. They cover the central Ohio region. If you go around the state, southwest Ohio is Ready Cincinnati. In Dayton, it's the Dayton Development Coalition and surrounding areas. In northwest Ohio, it's the Regional Growth Partnership. In northeast Ohio, it's a group called Team Neo, which you're very familiar with. in the furthest, most eastern point of the state, it's Lake to River, our newest partner, which represents the Mahoning Valley and some of the surrounding counties. And then in southeast Ohio, it's Ohio Southeast Economic Development. So they're the starting point in terms of the network and how we work on opportunities together. But there's all sorts of other organizations. There's site-selecting firms that are involved at times that are contracted by the data centers who help them identify available sites. many other organizations are involved, but for us, the closest working relationships we have are with

you know, sort of the chief marketers for the state of Ohio. We all know how Ohio's brand has evolved over the years. And so for a lot of folks around the country, they may see us as flyover country, rust belt. We all know the monikers that are not usually positive. And so Jobs Ohio has worked really hard in recent years to remake our image. One of the ways that we've done that is by being really aggressive in targeting specific events where we know there will be a high concentration of the companies that we would like to see come make investments in the state, and by having a really significant presence at those events, rather than peanut buttering, you know, all over every trade show that's out there across the country. We try to pick our spots really intentionally so that when we do deploy resources to have a presence at those locations, that results in leads that often turn into projects that sometimes turn into investments in the state of Ohio. So to be clear, though, 80% to 85% of the projects that we work on on an annual basis are with existing Ohio companies. So while that is a focus of ours, our primary focus is making sure that the companies that are here in the state continue to grow and make investments.

Through the chair to the representative, first of all we welcome those opportunities to help communities think strategically about what sorts of investments they want to attract to their community. I think you outlined the team. I think it's a combination of Jobs Ohio, the Ohio Department of Development, and then our regional partner that covers whichever locality that we're talking about. And if you have those parties at the table helping to advise and helping communities think about how to structure local incentive agreements, to me that's where the most value would be derived. So I think that's the team.

So through the chair to the representative, I think we're always seeking to find creative ways to be a difference maker for the state. And so if the legislature and our partners feel that our resources could be used to greatest value by you know creating funds or making funds available to help communities plan that's frankly something internally we've had a few conversations about because some of the communities where these things are happening, you know, may not have the resources or staff bandwidth to think strategically about some of these things. And so we're always thinking creatively about where we can deploy resources and if that's something that there becomes high demand for, that's something we could absolutely take a look at.

Yeah, so through the chair to the representative, Dana spent 30 years in the energy industry, so I'm not even going to touch that one and have him take a crack at it.

Follow-up? Nope.

So through the chair to the senator, I think when we talk about advisory role, that's more in reference to the role that we play with the Department of Development as they're considering data center tax exemptions and other activities. But more broadly, we do have an intentional strategy. We call it our business retention and expansion strategy, whereby we will regularly connect with companies, either companies that are already here or companies that we hope to come to Ohio, to talk to them about what opportunities may be on the horizon and how we can help ensure that Ohio is being considered for those investments. So we do have a proactive engagement strategy as it relates to all businesses that we would seek to come to the state. Yes.

Through the chair to the senator, yes. If we were to have a company come to us and say we're looking to make an investment in Ohio, how do we get in touch with the right people to explore a potential data center tax exemption, we would help make that connection to the Department of Development.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm sorry for my third round. I'll make this my last, I promise. So I guess with the work that you do on a national scale, especially in Ohio, what do you see as the benefit or the economic advantage of Ohio over some of these other states? and also are you familiar of what that looks like on a global scale?

Follow-up? Follow-up, last one, I promise. So what would stop this kind of activity? What would disincentivize this kind of activity in Ohio?

Through the Chair to Representative I think the tax credit or tax exemption You know if you look at late 90s when Ohio was very low ranked in terms of competitiveness globally and jobs were going offshore, you all, as a legislature, took up a very transformational where we were trying to attract investment and we were taxing all that investment. So we're trying to tax the very thing we were trying to go out, and no amount of incentives can overcome that. And so that itself was transformational, and if you look at what happened early 2005, 2006, and you look at our economy, we track this and be happy to provide it, it's completely correlated. Our economy started to turn around, and we were starting to compete. As my colleague Drew mentioned, the biggest thing was getting the word out about all the attributes of Ohio. And what's interesting about this drawing lines to the data center industry is, you know, if you're back to my bumper manufacturer, they get to come to the state, invest, let's say, $500 million in a factory. All that equipment, they don't have to ask for it. It's automatically abated. And that equipment goes in, and all of the refreshes that they go through, albeit much slower than data, gets abated. And that's important because that's a big risk element that companies walk around. And when they look at where to deploy capital, they're, where's the lowest risk? Where can I get to market fastest? And where will it cost me the least? And so now you have a data center industry, which, by the way, when the exemption was created for manufacturers, the data center industry wasn't an industry. We're still putting things in filing cabinets. And so it's not a criticism. Who would have thought that we would be where we are today? But their product is not bumpers. It's ones and zeros that they're providing back to all of our companies. And so to say that it's not important or it's an overreach is, I think, would take away from our competitiveness. And they're actually hurt even further because not only is all that plant and equipment, the servers and the energy infrastructure and all that stuff, which many billions are behind that, they refresh that every 18 to 24 to 36 months. So they're essentially remaking themselves every couple of years, which is very unique. And to take that away would put us at a tremendous disadvantage, especially when you have 30 other states or whatever that are doing that. And I thought, again, back to Jennifer Kreisler, she painted what's really coming, the upside of this, the construction jobs. That's why I'd ask a fully loaded accounting of how Ohio benefits and the ways that we get to collect some revenue and taxes, including all the way to the local level, would be incredibly eye-opening, I believe. But the fact that every time they invest, they get hit with more taxes, I just don't think you're going to get more investment. Probably going to get less.

It's a, through the chair to the senator, it's a unique thing to carve out a particular class of customers in a tariff. Candidly, I know there's a lot of gives and takes that have been, and I'm not sure I'm up to speed on every part of it, But I think, you know, the data center industry is driving, you know, the build out of transmission, distribution, new power plants. House Bill 15 brought the tools to build their own power plants, things like that. So that's all great progress. The thing I would say, though, is data centers aren't the only companies that are needing a lot of energy. You know, if you look over the history of Jobs Ohio projects, coming out of COVID, we saw a big jump in other companies that need a lot of power, too. So to carve out a certain industry, I think I would want to make sure that there's always this thing called stranded cost. Are people picking up their fair share, whatever that means? And those rate structures are very complicated to pull apart. My only comment there would be to make sure that if that's the direction that it goes, that they're not stranding costs on everybody else or having a certain industry pick up the tab for everybody else. And everybody wants the other side to pay for their – so a lot of caution there and a lot of analytics to make sure that you aren't driving an unintended consequence on either side.

Yeah so through the chair to the senator I think that absolutely a component of the toolkit that we developing that we have ready in the coming weeks You know it a little tricky because I think one of the challenges with this conversation is that there aren very many trusted sources of information in this conversation We're seeing that with some of the misinformation that was referenced earlier. We would love to be, you know, to help try to provide a trusted source of information. admittedly there are times where big bad Columbus coming in to provide facts sometimes that doesn't always create we may not be a trusted source of information in certain people's minds but we would be happy to include some of those facts versus myths in this toolkit that we're trying to put together

Yeah, so great question, Chair. And I highlighted a couple of those companies that we've, because of the activity in the data center industry that we've observed, a company like Westrafo that is an Italian company that manufactures those things, there's a value to them to being in proximity to their customer. And so we're trying to aggressively market Ohio to some of those companies that are within that supply chain. And obviously that has a benefit to the end user as well. So I don't know, Dana, if you'd want to add anything to that.

Thank you for that, because I'm challenging Jobs Ohio to look two, three layers down, right? The thing that goes in the thing, the part that goes in the part that goes in the thing. Folks are saying, you know, it's only 10 jobs or whatever, you know, whatever industry. 10 jobs is meaningful to me, right? because Ohio is great, and that's going to be my closing comment. As Co-Chair Holmes always says, I don't know if Jobs Ohio has a tagline, but Co-Chair Holmes always says, Ohio is awesome. So please consider that. We'll get some T-shirts made. Seeing no further questions, thank you for your time, and be sure to fill out a witness slip, please. Thank you. Next, we have testimony from John Suriak with the Ohio Manufacturers Association. Welcome to committee. You may begin when ready.

So you have a minute left.

any questions from the committee representative glasburn

Through the chairs, Representative Glaspern. Great question So one thing we would like to look at first is getting load forecasts correct So we are planning transmission upgrades with costs that will flow through to rate payers now And there may be some aspect of needing to correct those load forecasts first to correct rate payers. Customers who have their own, let me put this, if they've already sited their plant, their data center, and they're already connected into the grid under that agreement. We haven't contemplated that yet on those issues. I will point you to, this might be helpful, the graph on page five of my testimony, which has transmission price increases. That is part of the price increases we're paying today. But that started 10, 11 years ago, long before data centers came into play. So we have long viewed that as an issue and called for better scrutiny of supplemental transmission projects. To some extent, though, those costs are baked in, and that has been part of why we're seeing increasing bills and part of why we want changes to how specifically supplemental transmission projects are paid for and load forecasts, because we could see those prices continue to go up further. I should have been keeping track of great question comments.

Through the chairs, Representative Glaspern. So you can still accomplish what I've described here, like allowing data centers to pay for their own generation. can be a term and condition applicable to all customers. It doesn't have to be class specific. So as I've outlined, we already have provisions like this for distribution customers that apply to everyone. So that would be a way to protect customers. I'm not sure I'm quite getting to your question.

Oh, through the chairs, Representative Glassburn. Thank you. Yeah, so I don't know that that's an untangled situation. If they're paying for the power plant and they're paying for their transmission line up front, then those costs aren't socialized. Okay, so rate payers aren't risk. That's fine with us. If later that data center or that power plant, because they have gotten to speed to market quicker, they may have some advantages then to connecting to the grid And again that would be okay for if the power plant connected to the grid and then wanted to provide power regionally that would be suitable Again, we're not seeing in that scenario costs that are at risk to ratepayers so long as they're paying for them. Where a data center then wants the service line, I think what we could see is something that the industry handles with something called a standby tariff or backup feed. So I think you will have data centers that prefer grid connection. They're willing to pay for the grid connection in that case, have backup generation online in case the grid fails, and then vice versa where a data center pays for a gas power plant that's their primary source. They may likely still want a wire for backup power services, and in the industry that's handled with something called the standby tariff. where there's some charge but not the full charge. But again, all that infrastructure can be paid for up front by the customers or developers. It doesn't necessarily need to be socialized amongst other ratepayers.

Do we pay them transmission fees now? Mr. Chairman, no. We would not pay them. It's their lines. We're using their line to supply our grid. They would like any, if that were to occur, sorry, Mr. Chairman, if that were to occur, they would receive payment like any other wholesale market generator, so for energy and capacity. Generators don't receive payments for their transmission infrastructure unless it serves a customer. So for example, OVEC, the two coal-fired power plants, there's a transmission line. OVEC is more than power plants. There's also a transmission line. You're only paying for that transmission cost if you're a customer of that wire. So the generators aren't compensated for the transmission infrastructure they pay for.

Yeah, Mr. Chairman, I think, so you are bringing up a concept of that the data centers or some future version of what gets cited where data centers are cited, turns out to become a generator. So right now, though, we are focused on the costs that the data center customer triggers, the transmission system upgrades, and the generation, seeing that they can and are willing to pay for that themselves, that is preferential to other customers because it doesn't socialize that cost. Then in the future, there's a plan B, and I agree that there's a plan B. If a data center doesn't come online, I think they will have an asset of value with the transmission line and property. And so you might see a power plant there or a battery plant, but then they're in a similar situation as a competitive generation provider who has also paid for that land and that wire themselves. They monetize that by selling energy into the market. So I think in that case, this plan B where a data center, or in this case, a data center that didn't materialize but paid for the infrastructure, they. could have a plan B as a generator in the future, and they would have paid for their costs like a competitive generator and able to incur the revenue like a competitive generator. And if data centers are thinking creatively that way, as if what if their future is not as a data center but as a generator, this would set them on the path to be paying for their own infrastructure and access to market like we have other wholesale generators today. I yield back to Representative Glassburn.

Through the chair's representative, Glassburn. Excellent questions. Thank you. So there were, I think, two pieces here. One, the data center class. So we do not think a data center class protects other customers. I do not. I've looked at this math. When you have a class and what gets associated with a class in this case is not generation, it's not distribution cost, it's transmission. That's what we're getting at. And so you allocate a fixed cost to the class. When you change how you build a class such with a minimum demand provision, it only affects intra-class. It only affects the other customers. And so if you do this with data centers, you have data centers paying more or less for other data centers. It does not flow over to other classes. So I just don't think the math works out that there's protection from a class. I think it actually can create the cost-shifting problem worse, and I'm happy to come over with all the tables and spreadsheets to show you that. Second question on PJM and the reliability backstop auction. I'm going to give you a somewhat complicated answer. I would say it's extremely disappointing that PJM came in here and offered that choice. PJM had two choices that they presented to their stakeholders. One was create bilateral agreements between data centers and power providers and let the data centers and the power providers with their at-risk capital figure out how much they were willing to build. We liked that choice. The other option was PJM uses utility forecasts to buy power for everyone, which takes risk away from the data centers and the competitive power producers. Then they said they will allocate that back to the users of the state. So that is the decision on PJM's part, to pick something that puts rate payers at risk. And other consumer advocates have filed letters on this that have said we not the only ones that think this that PJM choice is completely at odds with the principles laid forth by the President Energy Dominance Council and the list of bipartisan governors that signed on to this. So it does create risk. My advice would be that the folks who are interested in protecting Ohio ratepayers should be actively bringing this up to PJM. It's just a, it is a poor construct for the reliability backstop auction. It then creates massive issues here in Ohio because PJM is saying they are going to procure capacity for this forecast. It is not data centers saying how much they want. It is based on the utilities. They're going to assign all those costs back to Ohioans. So it's a pickle, I would say, and probably needs to be addressed, but that is a PJM issue and there needs to be activity at PJM to correct that. I'm not sure how you fix that with retail billing of capacity. So it could mean increased prices to all customers because of the backstop auction here in Ohio.

Through the chairs, Representative Glassburn, I appreciate that. Just to clarify, I'm not disagreeing with those principles of data centers should pay for their costs, which you stated. I'm agreeing with that. What I am saying is between principles and actions, a lot can go wrong. We've got two paths here. I'm saying the best way to align with those principles is you have those data centers pay up front. Just have them pay up front. We know you can see these transmission upgrades are not created but for the signing of a data center. We know who did it. There are some that are willing to pay. If you pay up front, you follow those principles. Rate payers are protected. where we get into trouble, where those principles can get screwed up, and I don't think we have to say it's the Spider-Man meme, if you socialize those costs, then you have to track through and do this allocation issue. That is where we're creating problems of getting down into this heavy math, how do you allocate by rate class, how do you charge them. They're socialized. When you socialize them, you inherently create risk for all the other rate payers. We are on the hook for any cost that gets socialized. And so in this case, there are clear options to have the data centers pay up front where those costs don't get socialized and you can follow those principles. That's what we're arguing for. I empathize with you all that it feels like finger pointing, but my job here representing the OMA is to protect and grow Ohio's manufacturers. And this is what we need to do because right now manufacturers are at risk.

Mr. Chairman, so on math, one of the issues I have brought up is on the record, we have seen very little math. So this includes here in Ohio. We did not have a cost of service study. We did not have a ratepayer impact analysis on the data center tariffs. The utilities who introduced that case, they have a duty and an obligation, the obligation of proof is on them. So it is an issue if they do not bring forward any data to support their position, then that becomes an issue of the obligation of proof being on them. PJM, similarly, we would have loved to see an analysis on their two auction options. I think this is a critical issue of why there's disagreement on how to properly proceed. is we are bereft of analysis. I do not think the OMA's position and my statements here are alone. We have a lot of agreement on load forecasts.

So, I guess I have no idea what that answer was other than my question was simply do you have data centers as members?

If you do, you do. If you don't, you don't. It was just a simple question.

Follow-up. What's the OMA's position on the sales tax exemption for data centers?

Okay, follow-up. Trying to see the questions I've jotted down here. Do you think we could make the argument that you would claim that the transmission needs, the infrastructure needs were overinflated originally by the utilities, correct?

and that will trigger transmission upgrades, correct? Okay, follow up. So if the number was like 30,000 was the megawatts they were saying they might need, and then after it came down, it came down to like 5,700, you don't think you could credit the tariff for saying, hey, if you're going to claim the need, you better be ready to pony up the money? So didn't the tariff work?

So you would contest that the tariff is not helpful at all. Why do you think the data centers are okay with it?

And last one. If you say to the tariff, we don't want to single out anybody, don't we single out people all the time through rate classes and things like that when it comes to electric? So should we have no classes at all?

Right.

Thank you, Chairman. A couple things. First off, we appreciate your input. It's helpful. But just a critique. You put out a key vote yesterday. I think it was yesterday. I know we're moving along on this process relatively expeditiously. That's what we're trying to do. I'm going to tell you that was unhelpful. The timing of that and the lack of education to this committee before putting that out was unhelpful because we didn't even know about it, about what your position was. And then to put that out to other members without some technical background about why you're disagreeing with that was hard to deal with. So asking for going forward that you be a little more proactive with the people who are trying to make the decisions, and we can make a unified discussion about how to do that. Because that was kind of a shot in the dark, and that's not really how we want to do it. We're trying to make progress, not trying to throw roadblocks. So please help us with that. Secondly, I want to try to simplify this PGM thing that you're talking about here, and use an illustration from developers who, if we're going to develop an industrial park, for instance, The industrial park roads might be built and paid for by the owner, and then subsequently deeded over and given to the city. That's a pretty common process. Is that a model for how this PGM problem could resolve itself in regard to the issues you're trying to untangle for the questions that we're asking?

The road is the power line. It's the transmitter. And so if you give the asset that you've paid for over to another entity, then that way they own the transmission, if you will. Transmission of vehicles, transmission of electrons. Is that a better model to think about? I'm not trying to fix the problem today. I'm just trying to simplify it because it's hard to get our head around in real time what you're trying to even say because we heard so much about the other approach to this problem I trying to get you to put it down into a different metric that we can think about it different ways Maybe that not even the best metric but I trying to get you to simplify that a little bit

Representative Glassburn. I'll just say that I more or less share most of Senator Wilkins' concerns.

Thank you so much.

thank you for the opportunity to testify today. And I just want to say thank you from the broader business community for holding these hearings. I think the amount of information that has come out of this and the positive path forward that you guys plan to make our journey and go on is going to be pretty incredible, and I think this is key to what you're doing. Again, my name is Andy Hardy. I serve as the Vice President of Government Relations and External Affairs at the Columbus Chamber of Commerce. Our organization represents over 2,600 small, medium, and large businesses throughout the central Ohio region. and ultimately represents about a half a million people. For the employers we represent, the central issue before this committee is not just how we structure incentives, but whether Ohio will build and sustain the digital infrastructure our economy now depends on. Data centers are that infrastructure. They are the unseen backbone for manufacturers, optimizing production hospitals, delivering modern care schools, using digital tools, logistic firms, moving goods efficiently, first responders relying on secure communications, and researchers driving innovation. Every business that relies on cloud computing, cybersecurity, e-commerce, or data analytics is relying on data centers. They make possible not only our artificial intelligence and advanced computing, but basic day-to-day operations across every sector. In that sense, computing capacity has become part of Ohio's modern industrial base, just as roads, rail, and utilities were for earlier generations. The question is whether we will have enough high domestic digital infrastructure in Ohio for our growing workforce to remain productive resilient, and competitive in the decades ahead. The Columbus region is already showing what leadership in this space can look like. National research identifies our 11-county region as the leading hub for the AI economy, citing our talent, innovation, and business adoption of new technologies. The presence and growth of major cloud and data center operations in central Ohio are central to that success. We've heard it a lot through the course of these hearings about the different data centers, and Amazon Web Services offers a clear example. A decade ago, as you know, AWS chose central Ohio as a strategic location in cloud AI infrastructure. The company now reports nearly $40 billion in data center investment in our state. and many other firms have followed. And demand for computing power accelerates. Ohio has emerged as one of the country's leading, attracting, and hosting digital infrastructure. This activity is not abstract. Independent analysis commissioned by the Ohio Chamber of Commerce Research Foundation found that Ohio's data center industry generates more in state and local tax revenue than it receives in incentives. In approximate terms, every public dollar through the incentive returns about $2 for every $1 invested. Tens of thousands of jobs across construction, skilled trades, professional services, and ongoing operations. These are long-lived assets. Once-built data centers generate value year after year in the form of property taxes for schools, townships, and counties, income taxes for construction workers, tradespeople, suppliers, and full-time data center employees. ongoing business for local companies that build, maintain, retrofit, and serve these facilities, including in-demand skilled trade jobs. That is why our business community views data centers as critical to Ohio's long-term growth strategy. They enable the technologies our employers need today and will be the platform for the future industries we cannot yet fully see. Within that broader context, the data center sales tax exemption is one important tool. But it's a means to an end, not the end itself. It lowers upfront costs on equipment and construction materials that has been a significant factor in site selection decisions, signaling that Ohio is serious about competing for this infrastructure. The higher than expected fiscal cost of exemption reflects the scale of private investment and the activity that has already been unlocked. We also recognize that the communities are right to ask how this growth can be managed responsibly and how benefits can be shared locally. The Columbus Chamber shares the committee's interest in addressing electric grid capacity, water use and environmental impacts, clear performance standards, reporting, and clawbacks where commitments are not met. Many states are still searching for durable growth.

Thank you, sir. I appreciate that. I've been practicing my dismount.

Many states are still searching for durable growth engine.

Yes. We encourage you to continue this path forward, and we look forward to supporting you and helping you in this journey for responsible growth. I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you very much. Appreciate the opportunity here. And since I'm a – I appreciate having a five-minute clock, too, so it keeps me a little more disciplined here. So thank you. You've obviously got my testimony written before you, but there are several things I do kind of want to drill down on that are important. And first of all, the sales tax exemption. And so I'm going to talk about it more from a purely economic standpoint. And as I was actually chatting a little bit during one of the breaks with a couple of members of the committee, our view of the sales tax exemption is that it is very similar in structure and should be to the manufacturing one. because of the input, business input, and the issue that's related to pyramiding. And I got some work from the Tax Foundation, well-known organization out of Washington, D.C., that's done a pretty decent piece on taxation relative to data centers. I'd be happy to share that with members. It was done in December of last year, so it's relatively recent, and it makes the basic same case. It says, you know, servers and other data center equipment are exempt from sales tax in most states, consistent with the principle of avoiding the taxation of business inputs. Now, in many cases, obviously, as it mentions here, they're obviously contingent sometimes upon the development targets or different kinds of targets, which is how we have done it here. I would make an argument, though, that in some ways, which is contra to what I know is probably acceptable out there in the political world, in a sense, but it really ought not to even be tied to the economic things because it's a business input. And from a purely economic standpoint, If you're going to say that we don't want to have the pyramiding effect on those inputs, we don't want to tax those because what is the output of the data center? It could be a lot of different things. It could be a streaming service. It could be the hosting of a cloud data and a variety of those kind of things as well. It could be the training of AI systems and things like that. That is where the sales tax should be applying is to the ultimate user and where the user is being located. Now, there are some nuances here because it's social media and things like that. It's advertising is how they get their revenue streams, and so you're not usually applying sales tax to advertising. But that's a broader question about digital and how we do taxation and sales tax with services versus goods. And this is something that as the 21st century moves forward with, we're going to continue to have to navigate that. So that's actually a broader question about sales tax and even with the data centers. But my argument would be that it should be on what the end user is doing because in many ways the data center is providing that service and so it's that in-service rather than all the other inputs, the servers, the cooling of the mechanisms, all the other things. So that is the broad-based position that we have relative to the sales tax exemption. So that's one point that I wanted to make very clear. I did hear Representative Workman was asking some questions of some earlier witnesses here, and so everybody knows I talk a lot about China and the issues of the national security implications, but I do think those are extraordinarily important, and I do think we need to do everybody. I think the data centers need to do a better job. The industry needs to do a better job. Policy makers need to do a better job. Folks like us at Buckeye and other organizations need to do a good job of putting this information out there so people understand that this is not, yes, this is about jobs, yes, this is about innovation too. It's about how do we use AI across the board and how that's going to integrate with all kinds of other things. But it about national security as well And just yesterday OpenAI had a post and I copied it out and I can send it to members that are interested but from the Politico this is an article that in other news sources too but OpenAI admitted yesterday that they had China had launched an influence campaign to shape U attitudes on data centers This came straight from OpenAI. They had to actually shut down people who were utilizing it that appeared to be from China. That was directly manipulating it. It's not about so much money going into the hands of the actual people who are coming here and testifying or doing anything else. It's about taking a legitimate concern that people have and then ginning it up with a lot of other information and misinformation to get people really, really excited and really, really hopped up on this. We've seen this in other contexts. And so this is not really a new thing, but it is something that is a very cost-effective way of getting people engaged in this. And why? Because it is a strategic issue. I, for example, data centers in the Middle East have been attacked by Iran. Why? Because they're actually strategic assets. There's a reason they were being attacked. Well, if you start to think about these as strategic assets here, you can see that don't want to build more. You want to win the AI race. You want to be able to have information. You want to have propaganda control, information flow control. How do you integrate this into your weapon systems for autonomous weapons, which is inevitable and camping? This is why they want to be engaged in this. So I do want to press that there is a key strategic reason here for why data centers are important in America, and if we have an opportunity to take advantage of that here. Now, some of the other complexity that is in here deals with the data center tariff. We've been on the record saying we would prefer to see more of an industry-agnostic one, like what I perceive other states are trying to do, where it's based more on the triggering mechanism of the usage that you have. But we do share the concerns that we need to make sure that the data centers are paying for the infrastructure. So there we go.

Senator Wilkin. Thank you, Chairman. Thanks for being here. I want to ask you a little bit, just a couple of quick questions. Do you see where we are accounting for, I would say, Mr. Uncollected money, such as the $1.6 billion, in any other where the sales tax for manufacturers, the exemption for farming. Are we accounting for that like we do data centers? Thank you.

So if you didn't have this exemption, it wouldn't be here at all. Now, that's separate from the principles of taxation and neutrality, but just from a practical standpoint, we would have never gotten the industry started here in Ohio, as the director said, as some of the jobs of Ohio has said. So I think one of the problems is it's difficult to get our heads around. I think the short answer is I'm not really aware that we do do it that way, to the question you were raising. But the broader question is people, I think the public needs to better understand what never would have happened, this idea that, oh, we lost all this money. Well, you wouldn't have gotten it in the first place because they wouldn't have been here in the first place. So it's just it wouldn't have been here. And that does not get, I think, articulated probably nearly enough out into the general public. and it really needs to be. Follow-up? I think I'm more out.

It came from looking at the tax expenditure report and seeing how we do tax expenditures. And I don't have a good answer, whether it's right or wrong, I don't have a good answer as to why data centers are different from manufacturing, other than they make ones and zeros and the others make physical products. And so, as Chairman Holmes knows, I try to provide a list of amendments of things I think we can do, and I didn't want to drop this on us while we were trying to get something done yesterday, but I'm increasingly of the belief that we're looking at this all wrong and that the taxation should exist at the end product, not at the beginning of the procurement of these sites, and that that is part of the actual real answer when we have more time to do this in our second round of looking at this.

Well, thank you, Representative Glassburn, through the chair. I think that's a very astute point. I would generally agree with that. I also think one of the things that is important, I try to articulate in my written comments, is looking at the local and how we navigate local tax, the development options there. I know that's another piece of this is making sure that locals feel like they are getting it. I think that's a separate question from the sales tax. We want to make good economic decisions, and we want to make good decisions that get buy-in or we're going to have other problems. But that's almost interrelated, but it's distinct enough that it deserves its own question. I think the sales tax exemption is very much separate and very much in line with some of the questions you've been asking previously.

Thank you, Chairman. Why don't you do us a favor and give that some thought, because we've been talking about that subject, and you can get back to us as a committee, the homes, right? Because how we might think about, and whether anybody else in the 50 states are doing something in that regard, because that would be interesting. So let's leave it at that, but if you'll get back to him on that, how do you deal with that output piece? And where's the fingerprint?

Representative Workman.

Thank you, Representative Workman and to the Chair. I think one of the things is, you know, we need to make sure that there's benefits at the local level. I mean, Virginia, now it's a little different than Virginia because I believe they have tangible personal property tax. We don't. We shifted that to the commercial activities tax a long time ago. So they have had, I mean, just an exorbitant amount of revenue coming in. In fact, they're seeing property tax reductions because of data centers in Virginia, right, and especially Loudoun County, which is the data center capital of the world. It's one of the few areas that have been better than Columbus. But we probably would not get that kind of revenue because we obviously there's that tangible. But you will still get a decent amount of revenue there, and I think that message needs to be really put out there. In some ways, this is happening. New Albany, I think, I was very, very impressed with the testimony you heard, and the example of how things are being done well there and some of the templates that do need to be distributed and educated to folks who are in different parts of the state. But I mean in some ways that evidence that it can be done It has been done And there are models that are replicable in other places And I know that what you working on with the toolkit and various things and what the department is guaranteed to do within I think 60 days And so I think more of that is how we can benefit that Talk about what can we do to the school, how to help your schools, and all these other services that you could need, and any road upgrades and things like that that you might need. Very, very important, and it's doable.

I did have a clarification. So at the end of your testimony, you were talking about tariffs, and I think you were saying you would propose a load tariff versus an industry-specific tariff? Thank you.

Thank you. And just for those keeping track at home, we've had excellent questions, great questions, and now an astute point to Representative Glassburn. So creating a new category. Thank you for your testimony. Next, we have testimony from James Dunn with the Ohio Blockchain Council. Welcome to committee. May begin when ready.

Thank you for your testimony. You gave us a minute 12 back, so thank you very much. I knew where I stood in position here. Questions from the committee?

Sure. Through the chairs, through the representative. So we have a unique membership in the Ohio Blockchain Council. We have everything from a small type of data center or a Bitcoin mining facility all the way up to a hyperscaler. So we see a broad range of what the benefits that our members can bring. I'll kind of drill down on the flexibility as it relates to some of our Bitcoin mining operations, such as what Mara has explained earlier, a bit there. They have the ability to very, very quickly curtail their load in comparison to other data centers, such as whether it be a hyperscaler or another data center that doesn't have that capability. being able to count on them as an electric grid or PJM to be able to do that just provides stability and reliability across the board in Ohio. So it's something that should be encouraged because they're able to do that quickly and it benefits everybody, including rate payers, when sort of the rates get worked out as they come out on the bills later.

Through the chairs, to the representative, I can't comment on all of, I don't have specific knowledge to that. I know that their founder has been in Singapore for a while now. They estimate in the next two and a half years, from an investment standpoint, due to the climate here in the United States and in Ohio, that they plan on or are projected to invest $20.8 billion. and half of that is going to come to Ohio based on some of the plans they have for potential projects, which may be around your district. I will say they've had a lot of great feedback from their up-and-running project that's in Maslin. The mayor of Maslin have come out in public and really support how they've went into the local communities, done it the right way. They're not seeking tax exemptions. They have water solutions that have been beneficial as well to the community. So working with them, just speaking personally, it's been a great experience. I can't comment on the additional information.

Last follow-up, Chair? Follow-up.

Through the chairs, through the representative, I don't want to speculate too much, but I can say that we're seeing it in real time how there's been comments how they have to refresh every 18 months or 24 months or 36 months. I know that the innovation and solutions are going to come fast, and I would not be surprised that that could be a solution going forward for most data centers.

Thank you. So co-chairs Chavez and co-chair Holmes, members of the committee, my name is Steve Delbianco. I'm president and CEO of NetChoice. That's a national trade association for the tech industry based in Washington, D.C. And we are the industry, the companies that make your phone work, that make all of the cloud work. And I think you realize that all the cloud lives in a data center. So our industry, the tech industry, is number one when it comes to investing in America's communities and America's future. There's not another industry that is even remotely close. And here in Ohio, the benefits are very impressive, as you heard from witnesses last week and again this morning. So we actually should be here to celebrate how data centers have delivered billions in investment, six-figure jobs for high school grads, and massive amounts of property tax relief for Ohio. But we're not celebrating here today. I know that. So what happened? What happened? The data center narrative is now about fears over electricity rates, about water use, about noise and land use. Even while the actual experience here in Ohio and elsewhere shows that large data centers are responsible consumers of electricity and water, and they comply with all zoning ordinances regarding land use setbacks and noise. Please visit, if you haven't already, one of the new Albany area data centers not far from here, run by the companies that I represent. Ask the data center neighbors what they think about living near one Ask the operators who work there Ask the business community that services them And make sure you talk to a few property taxpayers in the county to see what they think of the benefits they received The facts in Ohio simply don't support this new narrative of fear. So I've heard you talk about it today. So what is driving the fear and citizen resistance? Two factors, anxiety over AI and its unknown impact on their jobs, families, and culture. And number two, the public does not trust government organizations, business. It doesn't trust the media. At this point, they seem to get their views from social media and podcasts. I think some of that's an effect of the COVID experience that we went through. So those two factors, the anxiety and the social media, means that people are particularly susceptible to fears that are shared on social media. And those fears are then amplified by out-of-state activists and by a few who do not want America to build data centers, energy, and AI. European climate groups who fear for the planet catching fire if we burn more electrons. And the Chinese Communist Party, which avowedly wants to stop President Trump from his signature initiative to beat China on AI by building American energy and data centers. I have three of his executive orders in my written testimony. We work with the White House on helping with that. So 20 years ago, this General Assembly faced exactly the same moment you're in today. There was a new energy industry coming into Ohio and into my native, western Pennsylvania, that used fracking for oil and gas exploration. Communities were very anxious and very frightened. The predictions were very dire. Poisoned wells ruined farmland and industrialized neighborhoods. And Russia's oil and gas industry had documented amplification of those fears so that we wouldn't compete with Russia. The state of New York reacted by banning all fracking at the time. In Ohio, you took a different approach. You passed HB 278 to create an expert agency, ODNR, to be in charge of statewide rules. So look at the scorecard 20 years later, $117 billion of investment, half a billion in property taxes from oil and gas. You had record oil and gas production last year, and none of the predicted catastrophes have occurred. So data centers are your generation, our generation's version of the same choice. Moratoriums at different patchwork level, that is the New York approach that is not the Ohio approach. The Ohio path is one you've already proven. Put facts over fear and design statewide standards to protect communities and give my industry the certainty we need to spend billions more here in Ohio. So I'll close by suggesting two things. First, to direct your ODNR to do a statewide study on data center water use. Not predictions, but actually how it's going. Second, please think about directing your Public Utilities Commission to study the actual effects of data centers on residential electricity bills. They designed the AEP data center tariff. They can actually show you real data, and let's see whether data centers make bills go up, or, as in Virginia and nearly every place studied, electricity bills go down because my industry absorbs more and more of the fixed costs. So if electricity, water, and noise are real concerns, then regulate them based on the facts that you learn. If the fears are exaggerated and amplified by our opponents, well, let's still protect citizens by giving them the assurances that they will not suffer from those fears. So Ohio chose evidence over fears 20 years ago. Let's do the same thing now, and I look forward to your question.

Thank you, Chairman. Thank you for being here. As someone who deals with multiple data centers that correct All over the country sir Can you tell us the effect of the sales tax exemption here in Ohio and how they view that, whether it's important, not important, how they view that? Please.

Just a quick comment to go along with. there's a very large data center proposed in my district to the tune of $550 billion. So I figured if you just did half of what that cost would be that would be taxed, it's right around $20 billion, which I would tend to think would get someone's attention at a company.

Representative Workman.

Thank you, Chair. Can you talk to us a little bit about the long-term plan for these data centers? We know right now that it's bringing an incredible amount of jobs. You know, there's tons of investment as where these buildings are being built and the developments are coming to fruition. What happens when all this building is done? What happens to the jobs? What will the servers be storing in the future? How will this evolve? Right now we're in a boom of development and activity. What happens in 10 or 15 years? And where will we be then?

If you start to force data centers to pay sales tax on business machinery and equipment, while no one else does in Ohio, and other states maintain the exemption, then maybe every three to four years they don't really upgrade a data center. And this is not a prediction, but it's possible that over time, as the data center becomes less and less competitive, too expensive to run, the companies could close it down. And they need to be held to remediate the site completely, restore it to its prior condition, and ensure that they clean up any mess if they leave. But I don't think that is likely to happen. Follow-up?

You're certainly right. We have built a network of it. And when it comes to AI regulation, that's the other half of my life is regulating that where I live in Washington, D.C. We are pushing very hard for Congress to give a national standard establishing that the contractual promises that are made when you're using ChachiBT or using Claude or Meta or Gemini, that the contractual requirements are met and that when you use that AI, there needs to be a firm disclosure of whether any of what you're loading into your AI will be used to retrain the model. On the storage of data, for instance, your Apple photos, Apple does not allow those photos to be used for any training by AI. But if the company were to begin to change that policy, we need to require that they transparently tell all of us that that data might be used for AI and give us the opportunity to opt out of any such thing. It is actually daunting to consider what AI could do if it actually looked at everything I have ever written, said, or looked at. I mean, a profile of me that I'd probably like better than myself, but I don't want that to happen without my full consent.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you so much for your testimony. In your testimony, you said that data centers have proven to be good neighbors and economic engines in Ohio. I just want to just touch on the good neighbors part. and you talked a lot about the disinformation campaigns that are out here. Have you all gone directly to the people who actually live in these communities in which these data centers reside? One of the things we've heard in past testimony from the data centers themselves is that they feel like they can do a better job of getting information out to the community and having those interactions So I guess my question to you is from your perspective from your role are you all actually going out into the communities and having these conversations

Just a quick point of clarification. So I know you come to state houses and you go to council meetings, but do you actually talk to residents as well outside of elected officials? Thank you.

Any other questions? Seeing none, I'll ask the committee to help me remind the Department of Development to look for opportunities for data center tours for folks. Put that in the toolkit. That's a good idea. I got a good idea from the committee. I think I'm ahead now. Astute point. Okay, so we have five more. Next up, we have testimony from Sarah Hippenstiel. Sarah Hippin-Steele Hall with the Miami Conservancy District. Welcome to committee. You may begin when ready.

Thank you for your testimony. Questions from the committee. Senator Blackshear.

We have not, I do not believe that we have experienced or are tracking that kind of question right now. Just to follow up on that.

so that they are a problem for future resilience. I would say that. And we have long done studies on water use across our watershed for that very reason.

Yes.

I know that if properly managed specifically our Buried Valley Aquifer and if the water user is using water recharge technology or water recharge practices our aquifer is practically renewable forever If we're using our water and then returning it to its source, as clean as it came out, then we are a renewable resource. Any other questions from the committee? Seeing none, thank you for your time.

Thanks. Good afternoon, everyone. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. Hi, I'm Anne Aquillo. I'm the chief policy officer for the Columbus Partnership. I am, oh I did, I thought I was going to get a timer up here I'm not going to read my testimony, it's been a long day for everyone here so I'm just going to make a couple of points, you can read it in the record so the Columbus Partnership has a couple of different verticals Mr. Holmes is laughing, he knows me well we are a family of brands, so the Columbus Partnership are headquartered companies here in the 11 county central Ohio region we also house one Columbus that was referenced earlier So we play economic development as a team sport here. And economic development, I have a couple messages for you today. One is economic development is a puzzle. There are big pieces, so we think about the large investments, we think about data centers, but we also think about the small investments, those small things that give our communities their vibrancy, their character. All of those pieces are important to the puzzle. And we believe that economic development should include all of those aspects. The one thing that was talked about today was the idea of what data centers can bring to communities. Yes, we can talk about tax revenue. We can talk about all of those great things. But it's clear from all the testimony you've heard today, we all depend on data in different ways, whether you're the nurse in Lancaster, the teacher in Marysville, whether you're sitting around your family table looking at those memories. We all depend on data. So the importance of having that here in the central Ohio region is really important to the vibrancy of our business community as well, because just as we individuals depend on data, so do our many different sectors that are here in the central Ohio region. The one thing I would like to take a moment to talk about is what data centers can bring to those communities. And I have two great examples, and that's where I really want to spend my time. One is you've heard a little bit about Marysville. There is a planned data center development up in that direction. they, because of that development, will include a $6 million roadway and a $20 million railroad overpass. That's part of the development, and the data center project is bringing that to the community. It's kind of invisible infrastructure. Millersport is another data center development that has a $30 million upgrade to their local water plant and an entirely new wastewater treatment plant. Again, that is something that's coming with the development, not on the back of the taxpayers. So this is a great way that we talk about a lot of very tangible things, but some of these are the intangibles that we're seeing inside the communities in central Ohio. And then I think the most important thing is, you've heard it from some of the witnesses, economic development is different in every instance. If there's something that I can bring, and I joke that I am not an economic development specialist, I just play one on TV. So I have lots of smart colleagues that I work with. And what they would say to you today is it important to preserve as many tools as we can Each development is different Each community is different each project is different and what we want to see is as many tools preserved as we can to allow each one of those deals to develop in the right way, and we work really closely with all of our locals to make sure that it's done in a way that respects the community and gives us the best chance to succeed. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman, I'm going to give you two minutes back. I'm here for any questions. Thank you so much

Thank you, Chairmen, and thank you for being here today. We have had many conversations. I represent Marysville, and I think it's been a really good plan over there. Originally visited the New Albany plan and got a lot of the information six to eight months ago before this became an issue and never heard a word out of Marysville about how well planned it was. So a couple of the conversations I was hoping you could maybe share with the committee in response to how do we tell our people who are the naysayers, you're dealing with all the 11 counties around, which three or four of those are mine, but we've had these conversations. What do you suggest is a good way to kind of overcome some of that when we can show really good planning works?

Follow-up? Yes, thank you. Just for the benefit of the committee, one of the things that they pointed out to me that I was surprised to learn about, and we've had this conversation about the numbers of jobs that come to the community, and all of the construction jobs that maybe disappear after, you know, it's gone from two years to six years to ten years now. But there was a new thing that was presented that is like an unemployment tax based on the number of people who were in those that could be in a big-sized facility. Could you just explain that a little bit for the benefit of the community?

And just to let you know the chair has determined that great point is not as good as astute point Okay any other questions Representative Workman Thank you Mr Chairman Real quick and I hoping I asking you the right question here Okay.

Mr. Chairman, Representative, I don't know that I would have a whole lot to talk about. I'm not an attorney, so I don't know that I could really speak to litigation. What I would tell you is we have a great group that works from everything from business retention and expansion to how we actually bring our new deal flow. I know we work really closely with our local economic developers in each one of those counties and cities, and we would, I'm certain, be working through concerns if they were coming from elected officials to help them kind of understand that. I'm sorry I don't have a more precise answer for you, but I understand what that concern would be, and I would tell you we would try to approach it in a way that would balance those concerns and help those folks come together and work on it.

Thank you very much, committee.

Thank you very much. Co-chairman, co-chairman, committee, appreciate actually going toward the end here because I got to hear excellent questions from you guys, amazing information that I got to learn from here. as you were able to say my name is David Berlecamp I live here in Columbus and last year with the help of Ohio State University I founded DoubleThink Solutions an on-device AI development company the whole point is to run AI off the data centers and entirely on hardware that you own the AI demand is not just one wave organizational load, research, business, government power users like myself, folks throughout Ohio should keep competing for it. But personal usage, the everyday AI that millions of households don't necessarily need a data center at all. I know because my own daily assistant keeps its entire accessible memory, tens of millions of words, or tokens if you know them, on my own consumer desktop right here at home. In one sentence, if you guys can aim to reduce the workload, you can. and recover the usage that you can't. For reduction, a household whose AI runs on its own device never shows up in the load forecast. It never draws gallons of cooling water, and it never asks a neighbor to subsidize transmission line. The heat, a few watts, lands in the room where the device is being used. If you were in Ohio, that's practical warming. The same family owns that AI outright at purchase with no monthly fee attached to their own thoughts. We talk about how to give people hope, and a reason to like these data centers, the ability to own what they're using would be an excellent talking point. The recovery piece, something that I've not heard yet, although one person did talk about novel water use, is the amount of heat we are throwing away. We consider it a byproduct of data centers when it should be considered a resource. both Denmark and Germany have developed what they consider green data centers where they reuse the share of their energy that they use to run the data center. This helps avoid power spent on cooling itself, and it enables closed-loop systems so that you don't have to return the water hot either to the aquifers or to the environment. The heat pumps that they have made in tire facilities, providing even more jobs, can amalgamate heat from multiple facilities and get it above 150 degrees, which allows for district heating. That's people's homes, their hot water, preheating oil at restaurants, getting it to the kilns that are making cement and steel. The ability to turn what everybody considers waste into its own product. And Ohio, if we're going to put this many data centers here, the ability to say we're not wasting water and we are not wasting electricity continues to put us ahead because Ohio is awesome. So far, no bill that I've heard of yet connects any of this data center heat to our systems, leaving an untapped incentive structure for the multiple ways that that could come back to us. I did drop four asks that I left back at my chair that was included in the submitted testimony. but ultimately count the heat in your reporting standards, reward heat reuse ready siting in the incentive tiers, pilot data center to a district heating project, and count on-device AI as headroom for the grid that you're about to protect. Right here in Columbus, Ohio State University already has their own district loop

we are subject to those bills Thank you for your testimony Good concepts that just shows that there a lot more to it than the talking points Questions from the committee. Representative Claggett.

Any other questions? Seeing none, we agree that Ohio is awesome. Indeed. Next, we have testimony from Alexandria Denny from the Ohio Business Roundtable. I'm not seeing her here. We will move that testimony to written only. And last but not least, we have testimony from Rick Cofagna with the Ohio Chamber of Commerce. Thank you for hanging in there all day with us. You may be getting one ready.

Thank you for your testimony. Questions from the committee? Representative Glassburn.

Co-chair Chavez, Representative Glaspern, having sat in your seats for a time, I admire your stamina. I think what you're doing is providing a forum for anyone and everyone to come in and present all sides. And that's all you can do in this republic that we live in. You are elected to make decisions on behalf of your constituents. People look to you to do the homework for them and to arrive at the best decision based on the information you have. And so I appreciate that you are hearing from the Bob and Betty Buckeyes of the world. You're hearing from the business organizations. You're hearing directly from the operators and everyone in between. All we can ask for is a forum to state our case, to provide data to all of you, and then you take that back and you ruminate on it and you make the best decision that you can. So I just say thank you to all of you for giving me an opportunity. I was lucky to testify two nights ago on the legislation and kind of present kind of a package of things we would have liked. Some things are in there, some things are not. We're going to keep communicating with all of you. And again, I'm just, I'm grateful.

Chairman, I have about a six-page written statement I'd like to read into the record on behalf of policy staff if you guys want to stick around.