July 13, 2026 · Ohio Controlling Board · 11,412 words · 8 speakers · 230 segments
Thank you to all of our substitute members today. Seeing that all members are present, Secretary will now call the roll. Senator Kaler.
Here.
Senator Lange.
Here.
Senator Ingram.
Here.
Representative Johnson.
Here.
Representative Davila.
Present.
Representative Sweeney.
Here.
President DeSantis.
Here.
Okay, the minutes of the previous meeting have been distributed. Is there a motion to approve the minutes?
Motion by Senator Kaler, seconded by Senator Ingram.
Are there any objections? Without objections, the minutes are approved. Okay, there are two updates to today's agenda. First, item number 48 from the Department of Public Safety was amended to include additional line items for the requested appropriation increase. The total amount of the request remains the same. Item number 60 from the Department of Children and Youth, which is pending a request for late addition to the agenda, has been amended to create a new fund and light item to which the requested funding will be transferred okay since we do have a late agenda addition from the department of children and youth mr potts as a reminder to the board members the department will first request for the item to be added to the agenda we will hold a vote on the addition to the agenda if the item is added to the agenda, there will be the opportunity to hold the request for questions as with any other item. Are there any questions on the process? Okay, seeing none, we'll move on to the request for a late addition from the Department of Children and Youth. Mr. Potts.
Hey, Mr. President and members of the Board. I'm Joel Potts with the Department of Children and Youth. Thank you for the opportunity to be here today and talk about this emerging situation and and we respectfully request that this item be added to the board for further consideration today. On June 30th in Benton County, we had an unprecedented situation where 16 children at one home at one time were added to the temporary custody of that county, more than doubling the number of children in needing care in that community. We are requesting a million dollars in emergency resources to be made available specifically for the care of these children, and we happily will answer questions as the times come up. These funds we'll use specifically for the placement and support services for these kids. We'll be transparent with these funds. We will track them separately. You'll be able to see exactly how those resources are used. They will be reimbursed funds. We will also ensure that federal funding, where appropriate and where available, will be sought, and generally the federal government provides up to 47% through the federal 4E program for allowable expenditures. Due to the ongoing investigation, we will not be able to answer any specific questions to the case itself, but would be happy, obviously, to answer any questions you may have as they pertain as we go through the board process this morning. Most importantly, I want to assure you these kids are safe. They are being cared for. They are receiving treatments, and we expect there to be a lot more services that these children will need to address the traumas that they've received. And some of these things they'll probably be dealing with for life. So again, I respectfully request that you consider adding this to the controlling board agenda today.
Thank you, Mr. Potts. Are there any objections to adding this item to the agenda? Seeing none, the item has been added to the agenda. Moving on, now poll the members for holds.
SENATOR KAYLER. THANK YOU MR PRESIDENT I WANT TO ADD NUMBER 25 42 44 48 and 60 Okay thank you
Senator Lang?
Thank you, Mr. President. I would like to add number 11 as a hold.
Thank you, Senator.
Senator Ingram? Thank you, Mr. President. I'd like to add 19, 22, and 60.
Okay.
Representative Johnson. I'd like to add item 25, please.
Okay. Thank you.
Representative DeVilla. Thank you, Mr. President. 3, 14, and 37.
Representative Sweeney. I think they've all been called, but I would like to have 3, 22, and 60 as well.
3, 22, and 60. Okay, thank you. The secretary will now read the held items. Item number three, the Attorney General. Item number 11, Ohio State University. Item number 14, the Office of Budget and Management. Item number 19, the Court of Claims. Item number 22, the Department of Administrative Services. Item number 25, the Department of Developmental Disabilities. Item 37, the Department of Behavioral Health. Item 42, the Department of Natural Resources. Item 48, the Department of Public Safety. And item 60, the Department of Children and Youth. I believe item 44 as well. 44. Yep, and item number 44, also with the Department of Natural Resources. Thank you. Thank you. Is there a motion to approve all items not held by the board?
So moved by Representative DeVilla. Do I have a second?
Second from Senator Lange. Are there any objections?
With a motion and a second, all items not held are approved. Representative for agency's approved requests are free to leave. Quickly and please quietly. All right, moving to our first held item, number three, the Attorney General's Office.
Mr. President, members of the board, my name is Bill Collier, and I'm the Finance Director for the Attorney General's Office.
Thank you. Representative DeVilla? Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Mr. Collier, for joining us today. So this is a waiver of competitive selection for a contract in the Medicaid fraud unit. And it looks like contracting began with this vendor back in 2019, if I have that correct. I'm interested, obviously this is a matter of serious import to a lot of us here recently, given the news around Medicaid fraud, waste, and abuse. How many indictments have actually occurred through the unit through this process It's been in place now for seven years.
Mr. President, Representative De Villa, you're correct, since 2019, we've actually had 125 investigations that we've utilized this software, and we been able to recover in a settlement or conviction like million in recoveries Thank you Follow up please And is this the only tool that you use to advise the unit within the department We also use data mining, like data mining software, to identify possible irregularities.
Follow up, Representative. Thank you. Yes, please. And then specifically, did this tool that's being used through the contract that you're looking to waive selection on again, did this tool play a role in the Medicaid fraud scheme that was just recently uncovered here in central Ohio?
Representative Davila, I do not know exactly if it did play a role, but I could follow up with the section and get you that information.
Representative Davila? Yes, just one more. And then how can we ensure that this software is actually being used in that case?
Sure. Well, we utilize this software in mostly all the investigative cases, but I don't want to for sure indicate that we are because I don't know for sure. But I'll get back to you today with that information.
Okay. And my last one, Mr. President.
Yes.
Just with respect to the actual waiver itself, You know, this board will often ask questions regarding the waiver of competitive selection. Why is that the process being used here when it's state law to actually bid out these types of contracts each time? Thank you, sir, Representative De Villa.
We brought this up to the attention of inquiring about an RFP, and we felt at this time with the number of active cases, we currently have 29 investigative cases on with this software. We were in the middle of a lot of the cases. We thought at this time, in talking to the section to our track record with this, that at this time we didn't want to do that, although we've told the section moving forward we need to do an RFP for this because there's other solutions out there. We want to make sure that we are getting the best solution for our staff.
Thank you.
Yes, Mr. President, just given the import of this and with the significance in the news and just in general as we move in the direction of implementation on Senate Bill 315, really want to make sure that we're turning the screws on these types of issues, make sure we've got the best process in place, the best vendors in place to get after these issues. Thank you, sir.
I appreciate it. Representative Sweeney.
Thank you, President. Thanks for being here today. I actually want to piggyback off exactly with what Representative DeVille was speaking to. One of my frustrations with this topic in general is that we have the auditor come in and say that he is flagging $2 to $4 billion worth of possible fraudulent cases. Then we hear about the actual numbers of what actually gets prosecuted, what actually gets to indictment. I think he said $24 million. There is some discrepancy there. And so it's either we're flagging things that are actually fraud or we're not actually doing enough to actually uncover real fraud or maybe a combination of the two. So given that, and I understand the unique complexities and sensitivities of having 29 open cases, but isn't it always the reality that the Attorney General will always have open casing? So are you comfortable with this vendor as is and believe that you guys and the Attorney General's Office, Office of Medicaid Fraud Unit, has the best tools in their disposal or not? Do you think at least on what your office is able to control, are you confident that this is the best vendor? And when will it be a good time since it my understanding that there always going to be ongoing casing Sure Mr President Representative Sweeney based on our track record we do know that with this software you correct there always going to be ongoing cases
We do know with utilizing this software the last five years, based on its efficiencies, we've been able to do a lot more cases, more work and stuff like that, cut down on a lot of manual processes. Before we used this software, everything was put in a spreadsheet, which is very labor-intensive. But you're correct, and that's something we've got to evaluate. There's always new products out there on the line, and that's why we really need to discuss doing an RFP moving forward because the technology is always evolving. It's changing so fast nowadays that we need to make sure that we're getting the best product available.
Follow-up, Representative?
Follow-up, please. Thank you for that, and I hope that that is what happens in the future. what in terms of the idea that when we have these big numbers that are being talked about I tend to believe that some of them can be overinflated but we've heard things, half of them home health care is fraudulent, we've heard the attorney general, sorry the auditor say 2 to 4 billion what is is it from all of the referrals that get sent to your office is it that you are going through all of those cases and determining that that's not fraud, or do you think with implementation of 315 or new research that you can get to more of it? There seems to be this discrepancy. Do we have the tools to vet it? Are we vetting every referral that gets to you and determining confidence it's not fraudulent, or is it not enough? And if it's the latter, why wouldn't we go forward with a different vendor?
Mr. President, Representative Sweeney, our office does not turn away any cases that are referred to us. To be honest with you, in my financial background, I don't have enough information to probably give you an educated answer on the dealings of the Medicaid fraud investigations, but I can get that information and get it back to you.
Follow-up? Any questions for any other members? Seeing none, are there any objections to this item? Seeing none, the item is approved. Thank you. Next item is number 11, the Ohio State University.
Good afternoon. President and members of the board, I'm Leanne Chandler from the Ohio State University, and I've brought with me Donna Goss, who's the director of real estate at Ohio State University.
Thank you. Senator Lang.
Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you both for being here today for this meeting. First, I would like to ask a question based on an assumption I have that could be wrong. I tried to get an answer earlier today, and the folks I reached out to didn't have an answer for me. Currently today the space is being leased by Ohio State University from a private sector business, and Ohio State is looking to buy the property. My question is, today are property taxes being paid paid on that property because it is owned by the private sector, or is there a current exemption because it's being leased by Ohio State University? And in the future, if the answer to that is yes, property taxes are being paid, in the future this would cut off the property taxes. That's not a statement, that's a question in there.
Good afternoon, everyone. Mr. President, committee members, you are absolutely correct in your statement. and everything that you said, property taxes are included as part of the rent for this property, so the medical center does pay those taxes through those operating expenses. Currently, it's about $165,000 a year. So with the acquisition of this property, we would file for a tax exemption. If we're successful, then we would glean that savings.
Follow-up center?
Yes, thank you, Mr. President. So thank you for that clarification. So the $165,000 would not be absorbed by the communities or the levies that are currently enjoying it. It will be passed along to like businesses and or residents. Is that correct?
That is correct.
Ms. President, follow up.
So can you talk to me a little bit about the savings that the state or the taxpayers will enjoy versus the additional costs that the taxpayers will be paying? And also, if you can give me an idea of how long till I'll call it a break even point. I know what I'm trying to say in the business world, but the vernacular is different when it comes to government accounting.
With all due respect, that would not be part of OSU's purview. It's the Delaware County that would be distributing those property taxes. I can't speak to how they will distribute those in the future if the university is not paying them.
Follow-up, Senator?
You say that by opting to purchase a property now, we will see a savings. So can you just talk to me a little bit about how much does the university expect to save? I can kind of do the math in my head myself.
Yes, the university will save the $165,000 if the tax exemption is approved. That is on the property tax, but for the $7.5 million purchase, I would hope the savings is more than just $165,000 a year or the return to the taxpayer, it's going to take 30 years to break even. Currently, the valuation of the property on the tax rolls, that's the basis that I have.
Follow-up, Senator?
No.
Are there any other questions regarding this item? Seeing none, are there any objections to this item?
I would like to get some more information and do a little more of a pro forma on this before we approve it?
Well, it's before the board now, so we need to take a vote now. Are you going to object to the item?
Yes. I will too.
Okay, with objections from Senator Lang and Senator Kaler, the item is approved. Next item is number 14, Office of Budget and Management. Good afternoon.
Todd Clark the CFO with OBM here to answer your questions for this request Thank you Representative DeVilla Thank you Mr President So this is a request to transfer a half million dollars from the Emergency Purposes Fund
to pay fees pertaining to the ongoing receivership for the City of East Cleveland. When was the receiver appointed for this purpose?
The receiver, President DeSantis and Representative DeVilla, the receiver was appointed, I believe, this winter.
Thank you. And follow up, Mr. President?
Please. And how long do we expect the receiver to be in place? Are we talking months, years?
President DeSantis and Representative Dovilla, it's a matter of one to two years in the receiver's filing with the Court of Claims.
And so it's a matter of the time frames you posed, a matter of years, as opposed to something lesser than that. Okay. Follow up? So, and then just give us a sense of what the fiscal recovery plan will look like then over the course of the one to two years. Can you just walk us through in a general sense what that might look like?
President DeSantis and Representative Dovilla, not at this time. It's still in an early stage of assessment of the finances for the city and laying the groundwork of what their short-term cash flow is and that sort of thing. So really at this time we're much more at the front end than having a plan emerging at this time yet.
Okay, and just one more, Mr. President. So these are emergency purpose funds that we're approving today. Is there a plan in the future for a different funding source given the time frame that we're looking at here, which sounds fairly protracted?
President DeSantis and Representative Dovilla, there is not currently a plan for other funds.
Thanks.
Okay, are there any questions regarding this item? Seeing none, are there any objections to this item? Hearing none, the item is approved. Thank you. Next is item number 19, the Court of Claims.
Mr. President, members of the board, good afternoon. My name is Anderson Rennick, and I'd be happy to answer your questions.
Thank you. Senator Ingram.
Thank you, Mr. President. I just actually have a pretty simple question, and that is where does the actually about 40, it's a half a million plus, where does that money go? Who does it pay?
Mr. President, Senator Ingram, the money in this case, it's a preliminary judgment. the first and two-step part of the damages process in the Court of Claims. This amount represents half of the statutory amount that is due to the wrongfully incarcerated individual. In item number 19, that is Mr. Marcus Sapp. So that will go, that is his damages that should go directly to him.
Thank you, Mr. President.
So all of that goes to him as the individual and doesn't cover legal fees, et cetera, et cetera?
To the best of my understanding, the second part of the damages process, they'll consider, in addition to the statutory rate, they will consider attorney's fees for the civil action and any possible criminal fees as well, and wage loss, if there was any. So that'll be for the second phase. This first initial phase, the preliminary judgment, represents only the statutory amount.
Okay. No, I'm good. I just wanted to make sure that this wasn't legal fees
and the poor guy was getting less than Thanks Thank you Senator Are there any other questions regarding this item Seeing none are there any objections to this item Seeing none, the item is approved. Thank you.
Thank you.
Next is item 22, Department of Administrative Services.
Allie Buccello on behalf of the Department of Administrative Services.
Thank you. Senator Ingram?
Mr. President, I actually just want to know with the pass-through, I understand it's the federal dollars, et cetera, and it would be the federal pass-through for the $58 million. Help me with how that distribution will work, though, and how it hasn't worked.
Through the president, Senator Ingram, the full amount will be passed through to JobsOhio.
So it goes back to JobsOhio for purchases made for?
Through the president, that's correct. The full amount is going back to reimburse dollar-for-dollar purchases that were made in 2020.
Okay.
Follow-up, Senator? No, I just want to make sure that JobsOhio gets it and they don't keep it.
Representative Sweeney?
Thank you, President. Why was JobsOhio the entity that was selected to make these procurements obviously supportive of the federal government, reimbursing us for a pandemic? I just have never heard of JobsOhio that being their role. And so can you explain to us as to why JobsOhio was the entity? What was their involvement and how did that number get determined of how much they were going to be allocated?
Through the president, Jobs Ohio was a participant on the COVID-19 task force, and they made the purchases because they had flexibility to quickly respond to the ongoing need. I believe that they purchased what they were able to purchase at that time, and this is the amount that the federal government has determined is eligible for reimbursement.
Follow-up, Representative?
Yes, please. Given the fact that I believe, to my understanding, no other state has a JobsOhio entity, so it's clear that I'm sure all 50 states were purchasing PPE, Do you have anything more as to why that was the entity that made the most sense compared to a state agency, which was the lead effort on the pandemic response? And obviously, if there is a legitimate reason why they need to be it, that's great. I just, the difference between JobsOhio and any other state agency is that is not a government agency. And so are we aware of how they came to that $58 million number? Is that just for what they purchased? Like, I'm just trying to compare, did another state similar to Ohio's size get the same deal as them?
Maybe we got a better deal.
Is there anything that you can tell us about why we use JobsOhio compared to a state agency?
Through the president, I don't know what other states have done relative to this. I do know that JobsOhio was chosen as the entity to make these purchases because of their unique flexibility to act quickly. I'd be happy to follow up with additional information.
this is the full amount that they spent They getting a dollar for dollar reimbursement from the federal government Just one final follow Thank you Is this is the dollar what they spent just the exact amount on what they purchased for PPE and did they get any payment for the work and time and effort, which I'm sure it's not, it wasn't an easy task. Did they get reimbursed and who paid for the services and time and effort that was acquired by JobsOhio?
Through the president, it's a dollar-for-dollar reimbursement of what they paid for the PPE.
Understood. One final. It's confusing because we don't have the honor or privilege of getting to understand JobsOhio's book. So do you have an understanding of what bucket of money this $58 million used that came out of? Because it's not in their normal ledger to be having a $58 million purchase of PPE. So it would just be nice to know what wasn't being invested in or where specifically those funds for five years came from. What was the cost of them doing it versus others? Like, do you have any sense of, like, within their own revenues, how that money was funded and where that comes from? I'm sure they don't have a COVID bucket that they were preparing for. So it had to come from something I would imagine that was going to go to other purposes.
Through the president, I don't have that information in front of me today, but I'd be happy to follow up.
Representative, anything further?
Okay.
Okay, that's what I'm going to say. Anybody have any further questions regarding this? Seeing none, are there any objections to this item? Seeing none, this item is approved. Next is Department of Developmental Disabilities, item 25.
Kyle Moore, legislative liaison at DODD.
Thank you. Senator Kaler?
How are you doing, Kyle? Glad to have you here today. This question deals with this wave of competitive selection for a half million dollars to a company in Pennsylvania to do training for professionals.
Is there a reason it's noncompetitive? Senator Kaler, through the president, thank you for the question. So, yeah, so there really are, I think, a couple of factors that make Elsevier unique and a single source vendor for this work. You know, the first is that their college of direct support curriculum has been validated to the HCBS regulations. And so what that means is that their training specifically references what home and community-based services programs are and what their responsibilities are to ensure compliance with CMS. So that really was our starting point, and they were the only ones. The second thing that makes them unique is the volume of curriculum that they offer. They have a catalog of over 367 hours of online and interactive training. And so the reason we are requesting to continue with Elsevier as well is because over the past couple of years, we have been working with the Department of Administrative Services to transition this work to the learning management system. And so going forward, I would certainly anticipate this work would be a competitive selection should it still be necessary once we've completed that transition to the LMS.
Are you saying there's no one else in the country that's been certified? by CMS to do this type of training, or are you just saying there's no one in Ohio?
Senator Kaler, through the president, that is correct. They are the only ones that are certified to meet the HCBS regulations.
I guess my question is, wouldn't that have been put in the bid process, that you have to be certified by CMS? I guess I'm just having trouble thinking that there's no one else in the country that could do this. I would hope it would be someone in Ohio, but you're saying no one else in the country. There's one company and that's it.
That is correct, Senator.
Anything further, Senator?
Representative Johnson? I had the same sentiments as Senator Kaler, so I think you've answered my questions also.
Does anybody else have questions regarding this item? Seeing no further questions, are there any objections to this item? Seeing no objections, the item is approved. Thank you.
Thank you.
Okay, next item is 37, Department of Behavioral Health.
Hello, good afternoon. My name is Vanessa McMahon, Department of Behavioral Health.
Thank you. Representative DeVilla.
Thank you, Mr. President. So this item continues a conversation that this board has had with a number of different agencies. I'm curious in this instance why the waiver of competitive selection.
President DeSantis, Representative Davila. This is for Ohio Pharmacy Services, who is statutorily responsible for procuring pharmaceuticals as well as medical goods and supplies for institutions, state agencies that are specified in the revised code. So the Amazon item is what Ohio Pharmacy Services frequently uses to fulfill purchasing orders, primarily from DRC, from DODD, and it ends up being the lowest cost item for the supplies that they are purchasing. But in addition, OPS does, or Ohio Pharmacy Services, does seek three bids from other established networks prior to moving forward with purchasing items. So Amazon has continued to be one of the lower cost items. I will point out that this $100,000 that we are seeking purchasing authority for, it's up to that amount. So whatever isn't used, we may not need to use the entire $100,000, but it's to make sure the money is available for those requests that come in.
Follow-up?
Yes, please. And what are some of the items that we're looking at purchasing here?
President DeSantis, Representative Davila. Some of the main items that are purchased on Amazon, we have personal care items like shampoo, conditioner, toothpaste, body wash, cleaning supplies, paper towels, sponges, mops, laundry detergent, food items such as protein bars, juice, vitamins like iron supplements, probiotics, eye care items like contact lens solution, medical devices, knee braces, shower chairs, weighted vests, wheelchair cushions, finger splints, and other health care items such as thermometers and first aid kits.
Thank you. And then you mentioned that this has been bid before and Amazon tends to come in lower. When was the last time this was actually bid out?
President DeSantis, Representative Davila. So I apologize, I may have misspoken a little bit in terms of the internal process. It not that it was competitively bid publicly but the internal process with Ohio Pharmacy Services is that they have some established contracts and networks that they purchase from For example we have pharmaceutical or primary vendor contracts for pharmaceuticals that are competitively bid through the Department of Administrative Services And those are what they mainly use to purchase pharmaceuticals. They do also offer some medical goods and supplies on those contracts. And so they will check the costs to find the lowest cost options. So they're getting three bids internally to find the lowest cost option for the taxpayer dollar because these are orders coming in from other agencies and institutions.
Follow-up?
Yes, please. And you may not know the answer to this since it sounds like it's a bit of a separate process. Are Ohio companies included in that process?
President DeSantis, Representative Villa, yes, Ohio companies are included in that process.
Thank you.
I'm sorry, Senator Ingram.
Thank you, Mr. President. And I just, because he asked that, and I know we didn't hold 38, but 38 is the same thing, but it's $2 million instead of that $100,000. So are we buying the same thing?
So President DeSantis, Senator Ingram, so the item number 38, which is $2 million for Cardinal Health, it's along the same lines. It's a little bit different because Cardinal Health is a pharmaceutical supplier. And so there are certain medications that can only be purchased through Cardinal Health, such as there are some medication mechanisms, maybe I'm not saying it right, but for specific resistant cancers, there's a medication for hemophilia, there's a medication for multiple sclerosis, and another one for non-small cell lung cancer. These are specialty medications that aren't available from the prime vendor contracts.
Follow-up? Are there any other questions? Seeing none, are there any objections? to this item? Seeing none, the item is approved. Thank you. Okay, next is item 42, Department of Natural Resources.
Ryan Frazee, Chief Financial Officer.
Thank you. Senator Kaler. Thank you.
Appreciate the chance to ask a question. Department of Natural Resources requests $2.2 million from one fund and $207,000. We're talking about $2.5 million to upgrade a shooting range in Delaware. Explain $2.5 million.
Sure. Mr. President, Senator Kaler, so I guess to start with, ODNR operates 40 shooting ranges. There are three Class A shooting ranges. Delaware Shooting Range, up the street where Central Ohio is growing, it's our biggest, most popular shooting range. Spring Valley, I think on the west side of your district, Grand River, suburban Youngstown. The federal government, to a grant attached to this request, these are federal funds that are used specifically for shooting ranges where part of our federal allocation are required to be spent on shooting ranges. So with the popularity of Delaware Shooting Range, particularly since it was renovated and reopened in 2023, it's a very popular range. There are a lot of sportsman-type enhancements to this that will continue to improve the range would be my response.
Follow-up.
It was just updated in 2023, and we're doing $2.5 million more in 2026?
Mr. President, Senator Kelly, I'll say that those renovations took several years. Over the course of several years, there were some of those improvements. So again I would say that this again is one of our most popular shooting ranges Follow up Senator So what are we getting for two and a half million dollars I understand you gonna tell me it federal dollars but it still my tax dollars
What are we getting for two and a half million dollars?
So Mr. President, Senator Kaler, so we outline in the request that specific level of detail, primarily I'll say around training, educational program opportunities, separate storage facility,
another 50 and 25 yard range for training for staff, so I'll say that it's enhancements across the board at that shooting range.
Are you saying some of it's for training the staff? Or for the public?
Mr. President, Senator Keller, for the staff to train the public.
Thank you.
Any other questions? Seeing none, any objections to this item? Hearing none, the item is approved. Thank you. Item number 44. Again, Department of Natural Resources.
Thank you, Mr. President.
Senator Ingram said I go to my range. I have my own range. It didn't cost $2.5 million. This item is for Rock House. Love Rock House. Take my family down there all the time. As a matter of fact, I rode by the signs just this weekend, headed down to the Hocking Hills Fairgrounds. I realize there's no bathroom there. $1.7 million in my district. They're selling homes for the mid-200s. For that amount of money, I could build six homes near Rock House. Why $1.7 million for a bathroom?
President, Senator Kaler, so Delaware was our most popular street range. Hocking Hills, our most popular state park. I'll let our chief engineer, Jeremy Wenner, go into some of the challenges on construction at Hocking Hills State Park.
Hello, Jeremy Winter with the Ohio Department of Natural Resources Division of Engineering. To the senator through the president, the project at Hocking Hills is focused on restrooms, but the underlying infrastructure that's there is going to have to be developed entirely. There is no infrastructure currently. the old restrooms that were there were pit latrines. So there was no water, there was no wastewater. And just considering the volume of traffic that goes through Hocking Hills, specifically Rock House, there was no way to operationally reinstall pit latrines at Hocking Hills. So that necessitated developing water and wastewater for this project. The restroom itself is a fairly basic restroom, but the water and wastewater is relatively complicated just because of the nature of the geology that's there. Also, just the large amount of elevation change and that kind of thing. It was very difficult to get an on-site treatment system and an on-site water system that worked with the geology and the geography of the area. So that is really where the majority of the costs are for this project.
I appreciate you saying it's the facilities aren't going to be anything fancy. I drive past the new rest stops on I-70 every day and they're gorgeous. I'll never stop there. I did stop to see what was inside them, but I'll never stop there. And there's not money spent there. I appreciate Rock House for what it is. I'm going to ask, is this stone with beautiful timbers and everything or is it a restroom?
To the senator through the president this is relatively basic We did acknowledge with the outside treatments the former CCC buildings that were in the area so it has kind of a facade around it, but it's very basic, very simple, very long-lasting. The intent was nothing fancy, just to try to match the architecture of the area with this facade, but it's otherwise very basic, very simple.
Follow-up? I guess my follow-up, I want to make sure I understand this. the 1.7 million is not to construct the restroom facilities as much as it is to pump in water and to get rid of the waste and what to do with that waste. Is that correct?
That's correct, and it's all going to be on site.
Okay, thank you.
Does anyone else have questions regarding this item? Seeing none, are there any objections to this item? Okay, we have an objection from Senator Lang and Senator Kaler. The item is approved. Next is item 48, Department of Public Safety.
Good afternoon. Adam Pletcher, Financial Manager, Ohio EMA, and I'm accompanied with Executive Director Sima Merrick with Ohio EMA. Thank you.
Senator Kaler?
Thank you. I've flipped my paper over. Public safety, we're talking about $207 million that I understand is COVID relief money coming in. COVID is five, six years ago now. What are we still spending money on? I understand it's pass-through money, government money, but as I said before, still my tax dollars or my grandchildren's tax dollars. What are we spending this money on five years after COVID?
So, Mr. President, Senator Kaler. So this money is coming from FEMA's public assistance program, which is generally opened when a president declares a disaster, an emergency. So COVID was a nationally declared disaster. So the program is managed mainly at FEMA's level. Eligible applicants submit their costs that they incurred throughout the event, and FEMA works with those applicants to develop projects, deem what ultimately is eligible to be reimbursed. That period of performance for those costs didn't end until May of 2023. FEMA was still, after that point in time, working through their process to get applicants approved. And then, of course, in 2025, multiple federal shutdowns impacted their ability to continue that work. So this is all now coming ahead where we are rounding out the closeout of that disaster.
Hold on. Please. So this money is not going to new projects or something that's happening now. all these projects had to happen and be completed before 2023?
To the president, to the senator, that's correct.
Follow-up, Senator?
No.
Okay, there. Representative Sweeney.
Thank you, President. Do you have a general sense of other reimbursements from the government if this is the typical timeline? It just seems pretty, just like the previous one, it was similar with the Jobs Ohio. in the pandemic happened in 2020, 2021. How different is this from others? And is it, are all states getting reversed now? Or is it just depending on when the states, like, are we at the back end? Is there a lot? Is there any part that the state of Ohio was involved in why this is so delayed, or is it mostly, which would be believable, the federal government for making this so extended, and is this typically normal for reimbursements from the federal government?
Thank you. I'm Sima Merrick, the Executive Director for Ohio Emergency Management. Thank you for having us today. through the president to Representative Sweeney. So this is the Department of Homeland Security in FEMA. The event was so widespread, and it was all 50 states declared at the time that FEMA had not ever been prepared for this kind of influx and then the purchasing that was happening, nor were our health care systems. So all of that spending they spent, they continued to help, of course, our residents, right, get the care that they need. They were working through that process, and then the feds went and had a shutdown, multiple shutdowns, as a matter of fact. And during those shutdowns, then FEMA personnel were being furloughed as they were figuring things out. So all of this has kind of eased up changes at the Department of Homeland Security, and things have opened back up. So that's kind of where we are, and it is we are the pass-through on these projects. They have been deemed eligible for what they have put in for.
Follow-up, Representative?
Yeah, just quickly. So would you say this is pretty abnormal for the length of time it takes for the state to be?
Yes, ma'am.
Thank you.
Thank you. Anybody else have questions regarding this item? Seeing none, are there any objections to this item? Seeing none, the item is approved.
Thank you. Thank you.
Okay, the last item is number 60, Ohio Department of Children and Youth. Welcome back. Thank you.
Again, Joel Potts with the Ohio Department of Children and Youth.
Senator Kaler. Thank you, Mr. Potts, for being here. Appreciate all you do. Obviously, this is a horrendous situation that you're dealing with, and I appreciate the work you're doing. My question, I think you've answered some of them, but I want to make sure. This $1 million is not going into a general fund for the, is it the Hocking, Ross County area in Vinton County?
It's not going into a general fund. It is going to be set aside for these 16 children. Is that correct? Mr. President, Senator Kaler, members of the board, that is correct. This is a special fund that is being set up specifically for Venton County. Venton County does belong to a three-county consortium, which is Hawking, Venton, and Ross counties. But these resources are specifically for this emergent need. We know that many of them will be needing therapeutic foster care for quite some time to come. That is $150 a day to $250 a day on average per child. So those costs alone would bankrupt the county when you see them doubling the number of cases. The dollars will be tracked. They are specific to provide resources for these children. There are resources that cover their transportation, their emergent needs, clothing, just their immediate placement. There will be court costs. Each of these children will be before the court. They will have to have special court appointed folks that will provide services Each individual child will have to have case plans and those sorts of things worked out So these dollars will be tracked specifically for this purpose and we will be able to identify to you exactly how those resources have been invested to provide resources for those kids And again, we will maximize federal funds wherever possible.
Follow up.
Please. And again, I've tried to stay away from some of these news reports because I can't, as a father and a grandfather, I can't handle it. But I know my wife's a psychologist. and I know from other family experiences and in-laws' families where they've adopted a child that came from an abusive background, that some issues don't show up until they're 13 and 14. Is this going to be enough money? I'm always worried that we're going to spend this money now when it needs to be spent. But what happens when the youngest of the children are in their teens and things start coming forth that we didn't expect? what happens then?
Mr. President, Senator Kaler to the board, hypothetically, not knowing what these individual children will do, but you are absolutely correct. There are traumas that children experience that may not come out for many years to come. These resources are for the immediate needs, and I think over the next several months, we are going to have a much better sense of what these particular children are dealing with, what their long-term needs are going to be, and those are issues that starting in Vinton County, they're going to have to look at and say, okay, what can we do? And it's not just the Vinton County Public Children's Service Agency. They're Family Children First Council, which includes their developmental disabilities, their behavioral health, mental health, all of those types of services. Other community resources are going to be needed. Those kind of assessments are going to have to be made. So you're absolutely correct. There are long-term needs for kids that deal with these types of traumas. Just being removed from a home can result in traumas. But a lot of the work that is being done right now, and a lot of the reasons we don't have the specific questions, is it takes time to do those types of assessments. But we do want to make sure we know as much as possible for each child individually of what they may have experienced and how it may be impacting them. And yes, there will likely be long-term impacts. And those are going to be issues that we will likely be having future conversations or you will be through the budget process.
Senator?
I don't have a question, but just thank you for doing what none of us have to do. And I can't believe what you're having to go through and what you're dealing with, but I appreciate it.
Senator Ingram. Thank you, Mr. President. And thank you for that. I know there's some things you can talk about and some things you can't, which is important. And as we move along, I think most of the time we have to remember that this isn't just DCY, but what conversations are you already having with other agencies, other departments, in regard to how this immediate money will be spent. And, of course, that doesn't get us anywhere near what the long term would be, but what other conversations? This isn't just a DCY issue.
Thank you, Mr. President and Senator Ingram. You're absolutely correct. And we are looking to the local agencies to take the lead on this, primarily through the Public Children's Service Agency and through their local Family and Children First Council, which brings those consortiums together. but most cases do require many different entities to be involved Education resources you know they going to be needed They going to be everything as basic as you know developing the proper foster placements hopefully you know getting children adopted. If that becomes, you know, the result, you know, of the placements, there are going to be a lot of different departments that are going to be impacted by all of our cases, but certainly by this one. Senator, follow up. Thank you, Mr. President. So, and of course,
that means you'll be coming back because this comes out of the emergency dollars that are there through the controlling board. So my concern is making sure that those connections are made and we're kept up to the intent of where we are and where we're moving to. And as I said, I know there's legal issues that you can't discuss certain things, but we need to be kept abreast of.
You think so?
Yes, Mr. President, Senator Ingram, to members of the board, absolutely believe there will be ongoing costs. This is to address this really emergent. This is unprecedented where we've seen a county agency literally double the number of kids in temporary custody overnight. It is something that no community would be ready to handle if they suddenly saw their caseloads doubling. These dollars are to immediately provide those resources so that the community can make the proper decisions based on the needs of the kids and not the budget. And it's not just these kids are in care. We look at the total number of kids that are in care in that community. We don't want Rob Peter to pay Paul. We don't want to take resources away from one place and put them in another. I think you're absolutely correct. There are going to be ongoing. I believe these resources will allow us to get through the next several months to year to allow us to really assess. I'm sure there will be hearings. There will be lots of additional information that's going to come out that will be able to talk that will give you better information to make long-term decisions. These resources are specifically for the emergent need of this case.
Senator Ingram? No, I'm good. Thank you.
Okay. Representative Sweeney.
Thank you, President. They asked my first questions about if it's enough, and I think everyone's concerned. Your department is doing whatever we need to to help those children. And I hear what you're saying. I actually am somewhat familiar with the county as our smallest county, and this is, I mean, it's a national case, and it's our smallest county, a perfect storm, however. However, I do know that this was a very large discussion in our state budget that we heard from county officials across the state about the dire needs of reproductive services and not having enough money. I actually just briefly for coming here was able to find testimony from the CCAO that actually specifically called out Vinton County. They said South Central Ohio Jobs and Family Services comprise of Ross, Hocking, and Vinton counties. The cost of care in that three-county area has increased by $252,000 from almost $4 million in 2015 to $10 million in 2024. And it goes on to all the other counties as well. And I know that the governor and your department put forward a budget to address this continuing needs. It's my understanding that you guys were proposing an additional $83 million to our counties for protective services. and this state of Ohio budget funded that $33 million less. And so I know we can't get into the specifics of the case. I do understand that it is a very small county a very large issue However I don think any of us can say that we are doing enough to protect all children everywhere And so could you just speak to how you and the governor and your team came up to that original $83 million,
and because we did not fund it, what did not happen because of that? Mr. President, members of the board, Representative Sweeney, I wasn't quite ready for that to go as far as the budget, but there are greater needs and there are resources that are available. The governor has significantly invested additional resources. The General Assembly has supported those investments, those increased investments that are providing for the ongoing costs. Those costs do continue to go up exponentially. There are other things that were in the budget that will help us to get a better sense of just what the rates are and where they're being charged and what are the costs to join the business of Child Protective Services. And through some of those works, we'll have more information to provide as we go through this next budget process. But the strain on the system has been significant. It has been for quite some time. And I believe this case and others like it will continue to put a spotlight on what these significant needs. As other questions have been here by the board today, it doesn't just impact children's services system. It impacts all of our systems, and we need to do better. So wherever those investments are, whether they're made in the children's services, whether they're made within our other support services or ancillary services and those sorts of things, they are being utilized to provide these types of resources. But those are things that other entities and the county commissioners and public children's service agencies can discuss. But further resources would help make decisions easier and put us in a situation where we'd be better able to provide the services based on those overall needs of the kids.
Follow-up or please?
Thank you. Thank you, and I know you answered that well, but it's a budget question because it's specifically related to this line item. It is the fund that we heard from Republican commissioners, Democratic, it didn't matter, that this is one of the biggest strains that is the state of Ohio that demands, that is our counties that are responsible for children in these certain situations. And I think that at this point, if there can be any silver lining outside of making sure that all of those children are finally, hopefully, can get the support and care that they need, is that this isn't just a one-off. It's not just a horrible situation, but to me, the worst case of what's happening of possibly under a crumbling house. So the thing I don't fully understand is or that I can't wrap my mind around is how could this ever get to this point of that many children for that long? How and I don't know all the details. Could that even take place? It almost was if we stumbled upon it by accident. And so could you help us understand who is responsible on the investigative or prevention side between the county and the state? I know that when we find children in that state, the counties are responsible, and that is what we've been trying to fund, especially with the remarkable work that your department has been doing to get the child wellness campus up so we actually have longer-term placements. but could you speak to about the system of actually finding these cases? And I I don't know how anybody could say that this going on for as long as it did, that our systems are working as needed. And I call all of my colleagues that we have to do more and we cannot look away. And we cannot just say that these are the counties and they didn't do enough. And I'm sure there's going to be investigation, but if something is structurally wrong, if it's policy, if it's more money, but could you speak to directly what is the state's role when it comes to actually finding these kids or making sure that departments are doing their jobs? What role do we have? Because I think we're all culpable for allowing this to happen for so long, and it's all of our jobs to make sure it never happens again.
Mr. President, if I may, that's one of the reasons why I didn't ask that very same question, because it's more than just DCY. And what he can't discuss is the case and the particulars because I've been dealing with the education piece of it. Where were they enrolled? Were they on jobs and family services roles? Were there anything else? So he can answer, but I don't want him to try and solve the case here.
And I'm not asking that. I was just asking because I don't understand holistically, like, who is responsible at which level departments. That's what I'm asking.
They are in line. Specific cases. Because there's more, there are systems. It is not a system. That's what I'm trying to get him to answer.
Okay, well, he can answer it.
Thank you, Mr. President and members of the board. The system in the state of Ohio is set up to be a state-supervised county-administered system. It is our governance structure. So the state sets up the parameters. We fund all the resources from the state and federal government to those local counties. The counties, they are actually county employees. If there are reports of potential abuse and neglect, they should go to the local department, and they would be responsible for doing the investigations and making recommendations. So in general, without talking about specifics of this case, our role, we do provide technical assistance. We have individuals that go out. They've been there every day in Benton County working specifically on these circumstances, but they do go out. We do new monitoring and compliance reviews. We do provide guidance, direction, whenever those questions and those types of things come up. But as you're saying, Centering, there are a lot of different places that are involved with these kids. We need more eyes on children. If you see something, say something. We need to have a better understanding of exactly what that means. And I do believe, Strong, that this case is going to help get all of you more information specifically. This, if you approve this item, it will allow you to see what are those immediate types of resources so that when those like myself are standing before you during the budget base and during other conversations and we're talking about, hey, here's what we're looking at. Here are the types of things we're seeing. here are the types of things we need, you will be much better prepared and much better informed. And as horrendous as these types of cases are, it does give us that opportunity to ask those hard questions. And it's time for us to ask those hard questions. You can't look at something like this and not think that we need to do more. And I hope that through the way that this account is being set up, through the way that we as a state are responding and the way that community is responding, is going to give you at least some specifics of how exactly it should happen I sure there will be reviews It should be There will be a lot more that will come out on this particular case and others that we'll be able to talk about. But I think the questions you're bringing up do come up every budget cycle. And you need information, and we need to be able, again, to have those tough conversations.
Follow-up?
Senator Lang. Thank you, Mr. President, and thank you for this work that you're doing. I know how noble it is. I have a kind of unique perspective. I spent my early years in foster care along with four sisters. I had an amazing foster care experience. All of my sisters did not. You can imagine, use your imagination, what they faced. And when Senator Kaler talks about, you know, 10 years down the road, things happen. I know empirically sometimes it's 20, 30, 40 years down the road. My question is, does our system today allow, and I do believe this is one of those rare exceptions where we need to err on the side of helping rather than err on the side of fiscal prudence. I fully, fully believe that. Does our system today allow the help that these kids are going to need to follow them once
they reach the age of adulthood? Mr. President, Senator Lange, what a great question. And I think it goes to some of the things you were saying, Senator Ingram. It is multiple systems. The most important thing we need to do, I believe, is make those assessments as early on as possible to know exactly what we're dealing with to be able to make those handoffs and to make sure that people understand. There's a lot of tolerance for folks when they're kids, but when they become adults and they still continue to have those problems, people don't understand how that trauma has followed them. And I think we can do a better job at that. I think that the system can do that. But I think the right hand and the left hand have got to be on the same page to be able to be successful at that. And a lot of times if we miss it during the assessment, it could make it even more difficult. A lot of times the individuals don't even understand that it's trauma they're dealing with. They don't understand the long-term potential implications of what they're experiencing. So I do think in cases like this it gives us an opportunity to talk about that. We throw out terms like trauma all the time when we talk about the long-term impacts and those sorts of things. But when you see something like this or you take some of these horrendous situations, if you really take the time to understand it. I remember many years ago when I was working on welfare reform in the state, I had a director who said, you know, the easiest way to get reform is when everybody is on first base. And it's very difficult. You have these horrendous situations that happen locally all the time. You understand it locally, but we don't necessarily see it on a statewide perspective.
This one is wide open. This is on a statewide. We're all on first base. Everybody agrees something more needs to be done. something should have been done, something can be done, whatever the circumstance. But we are all in a situation where we have a case study to really talk about those types of things and think about not just this. This board is looking at an emergency request to deal with the emergent situation, but there will be long-term implications of this in every one of our systems. Follow-up, Senator? Are there any further? Representative Johnson.
Thank you Mr Potts for all your good work As you know I the representative of Ross in Hocking County I was down in Hamden Saturday and it been hard for me to understand how this went off the radar screen But once I visited the home, I got a little better understanding. It's on a dead-end road, and it's very isolated. There's only one other house at the end of this road. on the other side of the road is a rail yard, and it's for the short-line rail service that goes into Jackson and Benton County. But, you know, I don't think that, I don't know in the future when no neighbor, the hardware store guy, the fire department had never visibly seen a child here. It's rather bizarre, to say the least. And when people are unreported and don't go to school, and the only reason you have to go down this street is to pick up the garbage or if you live down there or some type of service, I understand that the home was in an estate. And that probably was problematic and a contributing factor. But as far as the people of Hamden, you know, they were some of the best people and some of the best friends I've ever met in my life and are very good people. And the sheriff down there is a personal friend of mine, and if anything, he should be given high marks for breaking his case on the little smallest county in Ohio with the least amount of resources to deal with. And the question I have for you, would you say that the people down there have served to the best of their ability?
Mr. President, Representative Johnson, yes. And the community has responded extremely well. I've been doing this in one capacity or another for 40 years. I've never seen anything like this. This is to have kids that would be off the radar. A child off the radar is terrible enough. Sixteen kids and one family in one household. And to be off the radar is something that I've just not seen. So I do think that as we go through and do our investigations and we talk to these kids and we really start looking at things, we'll have a much better sense about how we can certainly improve the system. But I do think that the community, you know, they do report things. They do request help or support for kids, and we want them to continue to do that. and we'll, I'm sure, have a much better sense of just where things could be better and where we can improve them as we go down.
Follow-up, Representative? So to summarize, you're going to try to keep us informed of the progress of these 16 children.
We're going to do the best of our ability to work with the federal government for funding also and work with the entities. And we need to try to look at communication between the counties and so forth. And I welcome any input that you would bring to that discussion. But thank you for what you've done. This has been a horrendous case, to say the least, and more information will be coming forward, I'm sure.
Great. Thank you.
I appreciate all of your interest and your input. And yes, I'm certain there will be, Mr. President, members of the board, there will be a lot more conversations
on this and a lot more to come Representative Davila Thank you Mr President I want to maybe just elevate to the macro level as we I think wrap up this dialogue today I worked a number of terms during my last season of service here on Adult Protective Service Matters with the then Attorney General, Mike DeWine, and colleagues, and it took us several sessions to really strengthen APS funding, authorities, and statutes, just in a general sense. I'm curious from your position, Mr. Potts, what else needs to be done at this point, not just with this specific circumstance in Vinton County, which of course is very serious and this board is serious about managing today in terms of additional appropriation. What else needs to be done on the CPS side of things statewide to strengthen that statute? And I just want to offer my role as the Vice Chairman of the Finance Committee in the House as we head into the next budget process to take a serious look at that, whether it's through the operating budget or through freestanding legislation to make sure that we really get our arms around this?
Thank you, Mr. President, Representative Villa, members of the board. Money is certainly a problem, but it's not necessarily the problem. And I think we are asking you for an investment, and we need to ensure those investments are working. I think in this day and age, certainly we can do a better job with communications. We can do that through electronic communications. We can do that through monitoring. I think defining kind of the role of the state and the county is better to look for things, to look for patterns, to understand how all of these things do piece together. And having information, we can service families better if we know all the systems they're involved in. And we can look at it for their betterment, not as an idea of Big Brother, as an idea of how, again, individuals are already out in our system. and I think having the type of dialogue, having those uncomfortable conversations, it's time to be here and I appreciate the work you have done with Adult Protective Services and it did significantly change when we started having that kind of dialogue to really look at what we are or are not doing as a state and what is or is not happening at the service level and I think as we look at those types of things, we can do a better job of identifying best practices, types of resources that can be available. You know, Representative Johnson, as you were talking, you know, Benton County is very, very small. There aren't a lot of resources. They do have a local levy, but you couldn't have a levy in a small county big enough to handle a circumstance like this. But look at those types of emergency situations and look at how we respond and identify best practices. Look at our systems, you know, to free up caseworkers to actually allow them to do casework and not paperwork, I think would have a huge impact. So I think there are a lot of things out there that we could recommend now. I think there are going to be a lot of things that when we review this case will give you a sense of the entire system, which gets to what you were saying, Representative Sweeney, and give us a better idea of some specifics that we may be able to do. But I do think we need to have these kinds of conversations. We need to be able to say, what is the expectation, and are we structured to meet that expectation?
Follow-up? Are there any other questions regarding this item? Seeing none, are there any objections to this item? Seeing none, the item is approved. Thank you, Mr. Potts.
Thank you.
Okay, with no further business before the board, is there a motion to adjourn the meeting? Senator Kaler, do I have a second? Representative Villa, with a motion and a second, we are adjourned.