Senate Select Committee Hydrogen Energy

So, Ms. Fritz, you can begin. Thank you. Good afternoon, Chair Archuleta and members of the committee. Thanks for convening this important hearing on California's hydrogen leadership. I'm Katrina Fritz, President and CEO of the California Hydrogen Business Council. CHBC is the largest hydrogen trade association in the U.S. and represents companies across the hydrogen ecosystem, including producers, infrastructure developers, fuel providers, technology companies, manufacturers, utilities, ports, and transportation leaders, all working to advance deployment throughout California. I also want to acknowledge my fellow panelists today and the incredible work they are doing to help bring hydrogen technologies to scale in California. Companies like Bosch, Hyundai, and Sierra Northern Railway have moved beyond talking about hydrogen as a future concept. They are actively investing, deploying technologies, and helping build the real-world applications and supply chains that will support California's clean energy future. That's important context for this discussion because there has understandably been a lot of attention on recent challenges facing the hydrogen industry, including uncertainty surrounding Arches funding and broader market and policy headwinds. The hydrogen industry is still emerging, and emerging industries rarely move in a straight line. There will be periods of uncertainty, there will be market adjustments and policy changes, but setbacks do not erase the underlying need for hydrogen nor do they diminish the progress already being made across California In fact what gives me optimism is that the conversation around hydrogen has evolved significantly over several years Hydrogen-powered buses are operating today in California transit fleets. Hydrogen trucks and vehicles are being deployed in goods movement and freight applications. Rail use is underway. Ports, utilities, and industrial facilities are actively integrating hydrogen into their long-term planning strategies. These are operational deployments happening in real-world conditions across the state. And importantly, transit agencies continue investing in hydrogen fuel cell buses because these technologies provide operational capabilities that are difficult to replicate in many heavy-duty and hard-to-electrify applications. They need vehicles that can operate long routes, maintain high uptime, refuel quickly, and perform reliably under demanding schedules and conditions. Hydrogen fuel cell technology is proving it can meet those needs while also helping California achieve air quality and climate goals. And that continued investment sends a really important market signal. It tells us that the demand for hydrogen applications remains strong where the technology provides clear operational value. And that's really the key point I want to emphasize today. Hydrogen is not an either-or proposition in California's clean energy future. It's not competing against, but rather complementing electrification. California's economy is large and complex, and so are the energy and transportation needs. To meet the state's climate and air quality goals, we're going to need more than one technology pathway. Batteries will be essential across many uses. Hydrogen will also be essential, especially for heavy-duty transportation, freight and goods movement, industrial operations, long-duration energy storage, and other applications where electrification alone can't meet performance or reliability requirements. California has always succeeded when we lead through innovation and technology diversity. Hydrogen represents a significant economic opportunity for California, supporting high-quality jobs across manufacturing, engineering, construction, infrastructure development, energy production, and transportation. It strengthens domestic supply chains and positions the state as a leader in the next-generation clean energy technologies. California has already built tremendous momentum in hydrogen and fuel cells. World-leading climate policies, innovative public agencies, research institutions, ports, transits, and private companies have all created a strong foundation for growth. The organizations we represent want to keep investing in California, building projects, manufacturing technologies, and creating jobs. And long-term investment requires long-term certainty. Industry needs stable policy frameworks, coordinated infrastructure planning, efficient permitting, and strong partnership across state, local, and private sectors. Even amid federal uncertainty, California can maintain its leadership and continue shaping the future of the hydrogen economy. We can continue building the infrastructure, market certainty, and coordinated policies needed to scale the success over the long term. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today, and I look forward to the discussion.

Thank you, Chair Archuleta.

Each and every one of you, please. Better? There you go. Thank you, Chair Archuleta, and thank you to the entire committee for the opportunity to participate today. I'm Martin Herring, and I represent Bosch in North America. Bosch is one of the world's leading providers of technologies and services and the largest automotive supplier in the world. This year we are going to celebrate 120 years in the United States and employ around 20 people nationwide of which 1 are employed in the state of California across engineering manufacturing software and R California continues to be a very important investment location for Bosch In 2023, we acquired the former TSI semiconductor facility in Roseville and are investing more than $1.9 billion into the site to manufacture silicon carbide chips locally for the electromobility and energy applications. That investment also directly connects us to hydrogen in the state because high-purity hydrogen is an essential industrial input within the semiconductor manufacturing process. For many years, hydrogen faced a classical chicken-and-the-egg challenge between technology readiness and market demand. Industry invested heavily to solve the technology side of that equation. So from our perspective today, that challenge has fundamentally shifted. The technology is increasingly mature, commercially available, and already operating in real-world complications. The key question is no longer whether hydrogen technology can work. The question now is how quickly can we scale deployment? Bosch is active across the entire hydrogen value chain, primarily as a supplier of hardware components and systems. This includes electrolysis components for hydrogen production, fuel cells for mobility and stationary applications, and infrastructure technology such as our cryopumps that support more efficient hydrogen refueling stations. Importantly, these technologies are not theoretical. Bosch fuel cell technology has already powered vehicles for more than 10 million miles globally under real-world conditions. Here in California, fuel cell trucks equipped with Bosch technology are already operating on public roads through various fleet operators. On the infrastructure side, Bosch cryopump technology is being deployed within first element fueling stations, including at the Port of Oakland, to support more efficient hydrogen refueling for stations utilizing liquid hydrogen storage and supply, mainly focused on heavy-duty applications. Taken together, these examples demonstrate that hydrogen deployment is already happening today across mobility, infrastructure, and stationary applications. At the same time, deployment is not scaling yet at the pace needed to unlock hydrogen's broader potential. From our perspective, the limitation is no longer technologically. The challenge is increasingly structural and market-driven. We see three key barriers. One, permitting process for production and infrastructure projects remain lengthy and complex, creating uncertainty around timelines and investment decisions. This is especially important in the context of time-bound incentives, such as the Federal 45B hydrogen production tax credits, where project delays can directly impact viability and market momentum. Second, stronger and more durable demand signals are needed to support bankable business cases for developers, fleet operators and investors. The technology foundation exists, but long-term certainty is still needed to accelerate adoption at scale. Third, infrastructure development remains critical. California can build on its existing energy infrastructure by supporting both the development of new dedicated hydrogen pipelines, but also reuse existing natural gas infrastructure where feasible through hydrogen blending and related approaches. Hydrogen can play a very important role in the sectors that are hard to electrify, in particular heavy-duty transport, industrial applications, and certain stationary power uses. As deployment scales, hydrogen technologies will contribute to improved air quality, emissions reductions, and increased energy resiliency. California already has many of the foundational elements needed to lead in hydrogen deployment, including early infrastructure, policy support, and industrial participation. Industry, including Bosch and also Hyundai and others, has continued to invest and deliver commercially ready technology. The opportunity now is to move from early deployment to large-scale adoption. With faster permitting, stronger market signals, and coordinated infrastructure deployment, California can continue to strengthen its leadership in hydrogen. I thank you for the opportunity.

Thank you very much, Chair Archuleta and distinguished Senate members. My name is Eugene Litvinov, and I'm the Director for Energy and Hydrogen within Hyundai Motor North America, and also serve as the Vice Chair together with Katrina on the California Hydrogen Business Council. Let me start with the State of California, which Hyundai considers our home base in the United States, where we have over 100 different facilities supporting the Hyundai and Genesis brand, as well as various corporate offices, supporting more than almost 20,000 direct and indirect jobs across the state. We are deeply invested in the state of California and its success, and especially its leadership in clean transportation. In addition, we are now in a historic process of investing a further $26 billion into the United States to create a further 100,000 direct and indirect jobs. But today, I want to focus on one area where we can make immediate progress, and that is hydrogen in the heavy-duty sector. Heavy-duty transportation is one of the largest sources of emissions in California, especially in ports, freight corridors, and rail yards. It's also where hydrogen works best. Fuel cell trucks provide longer-range, faster refueling, consistent performance under heavy loads and varied temperatures, exactly what fleets need. And importantly, as Martin also said, this is not theoretical. We are deploying these solutions today in South Korea, in Europe, in California, in Georgia, and in other states to come. Here in California, we were proud to be part of the NorCal Zero project in Oakland, where 30 of our trucks are moving freight in drage service today, reducing emissions in one of the state's most critical corridors. Our affiliate, Hyundai Translead, has also now been in the process of appointing dealers so we can begin commercial sales of our Exxion truck. Globally, our Exxion hydrogen trucks have logged over 10 million miles in real-world operation, proving their reliability and effectiveness. In addition, we also have close to 3,000 hydrogen fuel cell buses running in Korea right now. We are also working on building complete ecosystems. As an example, in Savannah, Georgia, we created a clean logistics operation running 21 of our XC and hydrogen trucks, as well as we are in process of building a hydrogen production and dispensing station there. Looking upstream, our planned steel plant in Louisiana is being designed for future use, including the use of hydrogen. So from production, logistics to end use, we're committed across the full value chain of hydrogen. But progress like this ultimately depends on a public-private partnership for new technology to thrive. The California Energy Commission, the Air Resources Board, and air quality districts have been critical, especially through programs like HRIP, which helps lower the upfront cost of the trucks, infrastructure grants from the CCC because without fueling deployment cannot scale But we are at a pivotal moment right now The market is facing real headwinds rising tariffs costs supply chain pressures and really uncertainty around key regulations like ACT and ACF and the removal of arches. In this environment, the most important thing to give to somebody to invest is certainty. That is what matters more than ever. So California has taken some great steps so far and is a leader around the world and in the U.S. But to truly scale hydrogen in heavy duty, we need to go one step further. We need to focus and enhance these efforts, not just maintain them. To truly scale hydrogen, we should concentrate vehicle incentives and infrastructure investments in high-impact zones, such as ports, freight corridors, and logistics hubs. Places such as the port of Long Beach and Los Angeles where emissions are highest, where communities are most affected, and where hydrogen can deliver immediate benefits. By aligning HVIP funding, infrastructure funding, and deployment efforts in these specific regions, California can create clusters of activity that give fleets, manufacturers, and infrastructure providers the confidence to invest. And that kind of focus will create the momentum we need to drive scale. So therefore, we think hydrogen is ready, but now we just need to bring it all together using existing pieces within California. And Hyundai stands ready to partner with California to make that happen. Thank you.

Yes, thank you. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. My name is Kenan Beard and I'm the CEO of Sierra Northern Railway. We're a freight railroad short line operating throughout the state of California. I've also served as the president of the California Short Line Railroad Association for the past 20 years. Sierra is proud to own and operate the only hydrogen fuel cell switcher locomotive currently operating in the United States. This locomotive was designed and built in-house by Sierra personnel and represents the first locomotive of its kind in the nation. The project was funded in part through a California Energy Commission grant, where they contributed approximately $4 million towards the $7 million price tag. The remaining money came from industry partners, along with a significant investment from Sierra. For the past year, this locomotive has operated in testing and demonstration mode at Sierra's rail operation at the Port of West Sacramento, right across the river here. This multi-year development effort, supported by some of the most respected organizations in the hydrogen industry, including GTI Energy, WHA International, and the Hydrogen Safety Panel. Importantly, this locomotive is currently the only hydrogen-powered freight locomotive in the U.S. operated with the approval and oversight of the Federal Railroad Administration. Last year, Sierra acquired RailPower, a low-emission locomotive company with decades of experience in locomotive engineering and hybrid propulsion. The purpose of that acquisition was straightforward, to leverage RailPower's intellectual property engineering experience, and locomotive platform as a foundation for the next generation of hydrogen-powered rail technology. Today, RailPower operates as a wholly-owned subsidiary of Sierra Northern Railway. Sierra and RailPower are now in the final design stages of additional fuel cell locomotives. Through a $15 million grant from the California State Transportation Agency, Sierra is building three additional zero switcher locomotives for service at the Port of West Sacramento using lessons learned from the first generation prototype these second generation locomotives will deliver nearly twice the horsepower and more than double the onboard hydrogen storage capacity as the original unit that was built just a year ago. By the summer of 2027, Sierra's West Sacramento operation is expected to become the first fully hydrogen-powered, zero-emission rail operation in the United States. We're extremely proud of the progress we have made, but I also emphasize the transition to hydrogen rail technology has not come without major challenges. Hydrogen remains a new and unfamiliar technology to much of the transportation industry and the general public. As a result, Sierra has partnered with California Fuel Cell Partnership to help educate stakeholders, policymakers, communities about the safety, reliability, and long-term potential of hydrogen fuel cell technology. The single greatest challenge facing adoption is the cost and availability of hydrogen fuel. Approximately one year ago, Sierra paid more than $60 a kilogram for the initial 200-kilogram fill of our locomotive tanks. This is 12 times what the cost of a comparable diesel unit would have cost to fill it. Over the most recent fill, that number has been reduced to $35 a kilogram. While significant, it's still several times more than a diesel would cost. For hydrogen technology to become commercially viable at scale, we believe delivered hydrogen costs must ultimately fall below $10 a kilogram. There's also a substantial equipment cost. Locomotives have an extremely long lifespan. The Class I railroads, such as the BNSF and the UP, will operate these for up to 20 years. Shortline railroads will operate a diesel locomotive for more than 50 years. We can purchase a used diesel locomotive on the market for about $150,000, and it will run for decades. The hydrogen locomotive we're building currently will cost more than $5 million. For small railroad operators, that is a very significant economic burden. Despite those challenges, Sierra remains committed to this technology and California's clean transportation. Our long-term goal is to convert Sierra's fleet of 34 switcher locomotives utilizing rail power zero emission technology platform. Beyond that, we believe there's opportunity to help modernize the additional 250 switcher locomotives operating throughout this state in switch yards, ports, and other industrial switching applications. However, achieving that transition will require continued partnership between industry and government. Specifically, we'll need to see continued improvements in hydrogen production, distribution, and fueling infrastructure, along with ongoing grant funding and incentive programs to help bridge that substantial cost gap between conventional diesel technology and zero emission. California has the opportunity to lead the nation in hydrogen rail technology, just as it is with many other clean sectors. Sierra Northern Railway is proud to be helping build the future of California. Thank you for the chance to talk, and I'm looking forward to any questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I greatly appreciate you making this hearing happen today. I want to ask about the labor standards that you all are hopefully including in your plans and in the future on this issue of hydrogen. Someone mentioned the Port of Long Beach. it's in one of the most polluted corridors that we have. So as hydrogen is deployed for goods movement how is the port and how are you working to ensure that dock workers and the communities surrounding in that area participate in the transition So that one question Whoever has the information Any one of the panelists can jump in and answer that if it pertains to you.

Well, I suggest doing this early. The earlier it is in the process, the more the community and the working people who are directly connected and indirectly connected, somebody talked about the direct and indirect jobs that are created, is how do we make sure as early in the possible as possible in the transition do we, and I encourage early. My experience in many controversial projects is the earlier we include community and the working people connected to the project, the better off we are. Because if we wait, then there's issues are brought up. You talk about someone said certainty is the most important. I agree with that. And the certainty means people know in advance and they're able to work with you, especially when it has to do with, you know, cleaner air. So it's a it's a natural. It's a given that people will be supportive, but you've got to include them. And one of them is how to transition, but the other one is labor standards. Because as you all and as government looks to help to subsidize through tax credits, whatever the way it is, we want to make sure there's labor standards. And again, not wait until it's all done, but early on include it in the process. So whoever can speak to the labor standards that you are working under or with and promoting, that would be really great.

Anybody else work directly with – does anybody work directly? with labor?

Great, thank you, I appreciate that. And I'm glad to hear you're working with the building trades. Anybody else working with the building trades, you'll get extra points. The panelists that come forward, We'll be talking about some of the labor issues and the building trades and so on.

Yes, sir. Thank you.

I can probably answer that. So in California right now, there's roughly 16,000, 15,000, 16,000 light-duty fuel cell vehicles. which is pretty much Toyota Mirai, Hyundai Nexo, and there's some Honda in there, with the majority of them being Toyota Mirais. So that's the pool of light-duty cars. As far as trucks operating in the state, it's probably somewhere around 100, let's just say, between, again, Hyundai and previous Nikola trucks that are now branded as High Road. And I would add on the transit side. Yeah, transit. There are more and more buses coming on the road every month at this point. So we probably have over 50 operational, all of the different fleets and transit agencies. But we're going to see in the hundreds within the next two years of buses.

Other states, there's not much in other states. California was always a pioneer on hydrogen and had the infrastructure set up probably a decade ago. Other states are now looking at expanding into it, especially on the heavy-duty side. But nobody has done what California has done. In other countries, I can speak to at least South Korea, there there's probably about 50,000 light-duty cars on the road, 3,000 buses and several hundred trucks running in the country of South Korea.

Was that it? Yes.

In our world, in the locomotive world, it's very similar. So $10 a kilogram is approximately equal to $10 a gallon. But there is cost savings in operating a hydrogen locomotive over a diesel locomotive. You don't have all the oil, all the moving parts, and everything else. So when you start taking the cost of operation, you can pay a little bit more for fuel because you have a cost savings. So anything below that $10 a kilogram should make it a break-even operation in the locomotive world.

I can only speak from mine. The last was $35 a kilogram delivered.

So the main fuel provider in California is First Element Fuel. It's a company that runs most of the stations in California. They were selling previously at around that price point, but they've come down into the mid-20s after Toyota invested money into it and made some changes.

Well, the program that I mentioned, HVIP, which is...

So CARB runs a program called HVIP, H-V-I-P. So it's basically hydrogen or heavy vehicle incentive program. And they provide subsidies for purchasing either hydrogen fuel cell or battery electric trucks and buses. And I believe at this point historically, I mean, they funded almost a billion dollars into that program over the course of its history. So that's a very important program because a hydrogen fuel cell product is more expensive than diesel product. Same in locomotives, same in trucks. And so to get fleets above that hurdle of adoption, it provides that upfront subsidy to help it get to close to diesel parity. Now, obviously, there's been a lot of cost changes and tariffs and other impacts that have skewed it a little bit more than it previously was, but that is a very important program. CARB additionally has done quite a bit. The scoping plan from 2022 called for 1,700 times more hydrogen to help address some of these hard-to-electrify sectors. They have the low-carbon fuel standard for the fuel side on transportation that's been critical to keeping all the vehicles that Eugene mentioned on the road. They run the planning for the zero-emission vehicle side of the state, both light, medium, and heavy duty. So they're very involved, I would say, across the board in the foundational regulations and programs.

You're welcome. And I'll just add that we need them to continue those programs, but now we need to try to marry them with the infrastructure programs provided by the Energy Commission and the Air Quality Districts to try to bring all of those into one into kind of a more targeted approach I going to finish up with one question and that would be for you Katrina

Yeah, so there were changes to the federal tax credit 45E that would provide a tax credit for hydrogen production. And the biggest change was that they pulled back the dates. So now you have to begin construction much sooner, right? So by the end of 2028. And I would say that has pushed all of us to push the state to help us get those projects online sooner, right? So something that Martin referred to was the permitting side. So that's an example. There's still a 30 percent federal tax credit for stationary fuel cells for power generation and backup power. So that is a place where California does lead. There's hundreds and hundreds of megawatts online already. One of the changes where we need California to step up was the loss of the vehicle and fueling infrastructure tax credits federally, which is why we've been talking a lot about HVIP. And that clean transportation program that's run by the CEC remained really important for us to maintain leadership in this area.

Thank you, Chair, and members of the committee, thank you so much for having me here. So I'm here to speak about hydrogen's potential role in helping California's address the air quality emissions gap that's created by the federal action affecting California's clean vehicle waivers as well as some of the local impacts that we're seeing from you know movement with data centers and the increasing need to have on-site power. California's air quality challenge remains urgent. Many communities especially in the south coast and San Joaquin Valley both extreme non-attainment areas in California, port adjacent neighborhoods, warehouse corridors, freight routes continue to experience unhealthy ozone, diesel particulate matter and toxic air pollution. These burdens are significant. They affect asthma rates, cancer risk, they contribute to missed school days, missed work days, and overall negative impacts on quality of life. Recent federal action affecting California's clean vehicle waivers creates a real problem because those rules were designed to reduce pollution from some of the hardest sources to clean up, meaning heavy-duty trucks, diesel engines, freight equipment, and new vehicle fleets. Hydrogen can help address part of that gap. We're facing between 140-170 tons per day of NOx emissions because of the federal waivers, because of the federal rollback of the waivers. And hydrogen can help address that gap if we deploy it in the right way. The strongest air quality case for hydrogen is in fuel cell electric applications that replace diesel combustion. You get benefits from criteria pollutants and you get benefits from mitigating air toxic pollutants that way. A hydrogen fuel cell truck, bus, port vehicle, or piece of cargo handling equipment is an electric vehicle, essentially. It does not burn fuel, and at the point of use, it emits water vapor, essentially, not diesel sit, not tailpipe knocks, and not the toxic emissions that we see in freight adjacent communities. And that distinction is critical because hydrogen, you know, from the air district's perspective, needs to be used and needs to be deployed judiciously. If we are using hydrogen in a combustion process where it's not being put through a fuel cell, then we still have some air quality impacts. And so the efficacy of hydrogen, you know, is somewhat reduced there when we combust it. But, you know, I think what we've heard here so far today is that we're advocating for using fuel cells. We're advocating for using cleaner options for hydrogen, and that's something that we really need to help us move towards our air quality goals. Hydrogen can be especially useful in sectors for battery, electric, and technology, and we face operational barriers. I mean, we've heard a fair amount about hard-to-electrify sectors. Again, trucking, transit, rail, port equipment, off-road equipment, and especially, like I mentioned earlier, backup power. You know, these places where we have long-duty cycles, heavy loads, rapid refueling needs, or grid constraints can make hydrogen a practical zero-emissions pathway. And they can help move fleets away from diesel sooner than they otherwise could. But, again, hydrogen should be deployed surgically. Priority, we believe, should be in the highest polluting diesel activity in the most polluted communities. and that means ports, rail yards, warehouse clusters, freight corridors, public transit depots, fleets, and facilities that rely on diesel backup generator. And again, I point to data centers as, you know, the most recently evolved discussion that we've been having because many of the data centers coming in have hundreds of megawatts of backup power that they need and oftentimes they'll deploy diesel technology or less than clean technologies. And so, you know, we really view fuel sales as a potential pathway forward for addressing some of those impacts. So there are some cautions, I guess, or I guess things that we need to keep in mind as we're looking forward to, you know, including hydrogen as part of all the tools that we need in the toolbox to address our air quality needs. First, we have to be careful about where hydrogen is produced. If we're still relying on natural gas, for instance, which is a fossil fuel, to create the hydrogen, then again, that reduces the benefits of hydrogen somewhat. And so we need to, again, just, you know, we need to be cognizant of that because we don't want to shift pollution from just, like, one fuel source to another. You know, going away from fossil fuels to hydrogen, we need to try to realize as much benefits as we can there as we make that transition. Secondly, hydrogen infrastructure has to be reliable. I think we've heard a fair amount from the first panel about the reliability and infrastructure needs for hydrogen. and that is certainly something that's very critical for us to keep in mind.

Thank you Bill Thanks Thanks very much Mr Chairman Bill McGavern with the Coalition for Clean Air I completely agree with the comments you just heard from Tung, so I'll try not to be repetitive. Like him, I'll start with the bad news, which is, despite decades of progress, California still has the worst air pollution in the country. And if we look at the State of the Air report that the Lung Association released just last month, all five of the counties with the worst smog in the country are in our state, San Bernardino, Riverside, Los Angeles, Tulare, and Kern. And when it comes to fine particulate matter or soot on an annual basis, Kern has the worst in the whole country. And also in the top ten are Fresno, San Diego, Tulare, San Bernardino, Kings, and Riverside. So we do have these challenges which are compounded by the federal rollbacks of crucial California and national safeguards. We also are facing the existential climate crisis which has been brought home to California many times in wildfires, droughts, heat waves, floods. So we know we need to act, and that's particularly true when it comes to the transportation sector, which is responsible for about 80 percent of our air pollution and about half of the greenhouse gas emissions that are driving climate change. The good news, as I think everyone in this room agrees, is that we have solutions, and hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles are completely zero emission. So, you know, for me, when we talk about EVs, there's battery electric and there's fuel cell electric. They're both EVs. They're both zero emission. And I agree with the comments in the first panel and also by tongue that we should focus hydrogen resources, especially on medium and heavy duty sectors, both transit and also in goods movement. When it comes to transit, we are seeing agencies embracing hydrogen. I think the leader is Foothill Transit, which has 37 fuel cell electric buses, the largest fleet in the whole nation. They refuel in 7 to 10 minutes and have a 300-mile range. So I think that's very attractive if the cost can be kept down. down. And similarly, in terms of ports and trucking, we are bullish on hydrogen solutions. I sit on the advisory committee to the Energy Commission's Clean Transportation Program. We met just last Friday, and I urge that the infrastructure funding that goes through that program be focused on buses, trucks, and freight. And similarly, as you head into the homestretch, on the budget, I hope you can come up with some funding for the HVIP program, which provides the incentives on the vehicle side for our zero emission buses and trucks. I also would focus, in addition to transportation, stationary sources. As you've heard from a couple other witnesses, we need to replace diesel, especially when comes to backup generators for facilities like data centers. The diesel is very polluting and we have hydrogen fuel cell which is a completely clean solution I really agree with Senator Durazo that it important to involve communities early This is a new technology for most folks, and it's important to bring people in, have them share in the decision-making, and I think that will reduce a lot of resistance that you might face later on. And as part of that, I think it's also important to continue greening the feedstocks for hydrogen production. There's progress that's been made. I mean, I was actually here in this room many years ago supporting a bill by then-Senator Lowenthal, which established a renewable percentage minimum for hydrogen. And I think we need to keep moving that up, as we are with the electric grid. I think hydrogen should be held to basically the same standard as electricity. We can't expect it to green overnight, but we do want to hit that renewable target phasing in over time. And finally, I'll just point out that we at Coalition for Clean Air on June 4th are hosting a solutions tour and solutions summit at Altacy at the Port of Los Angeles, where we'll be focusing on hydrogen and other solutions, particularly for cleaning up goods movement. And we'd love to see all you senators at that event.

Thank you. Good afternoon, Senator Archuleta, Senator Cortese, Senator Nilo, Mark Mulliner, California State Building Trades. I'm here representing, filling in for President Hannon. I've been here before in front of you. The California State Building Trades, I myself am a 34-year U.A. steam fitter, welder. I've built hydrogen plants in the Bay Area and all the refineries. We recognize and agree with a lot of what's being said here. We recognize that the transition is coming, but the transition needs to be utilized with all of the renewables. And hydrogen should be, and I believe right now we have a Senate bill by McNeary, SB 1350, that's trying to get hydrogen into the credit for the three pillars to be able to utilize hydrogen in line. And here's an example that I have that's that's for 34 years ago. I got in the trade. We were doing gas fired generators. Then they changed to close cycle, combined cycle generators for all the power. A lot of our owners are utilizing, modernizing their turbines, anticipating, hoping for a blend, hoping to be able to blend hydrogen with gas, recognizing that gas is going to fade away. Everybody knows that. But we want it to be able to do it naturally and organically as everything else gets better. The California State Building Trades works with everybody to try to improve the environment and do better, not only in our training, our safety, and the things that we build for the communities, but we recognize that that's part of the transition. We are asking and we're hopeful that we can get the things done unilaterally, all together, combined, to make the difference. And that's where we're at. Thank you.

Good afternoon Thank you chairman and members the committee for the opportunity I Lin Jing a research affiliate with UC Berkeley where I specialize in integrated system modeling to understand emissions air quality and human health impact from energy interventions I want to be clear that my remarks are my own and do not represent the views of the University of California. Now, while we often discuss hydrogen through the lens of carbon neutrality, for millions of Californians, as mentioned by other panelists, especially who live in the South Coast Air Basin, one of the nation's worst polluted region, this is fundamentally a health issue. Without transition to clean energy, the emissions from the transportation sector alone are responsible for more than 1,600 premature deaths annually. And these impacts are not distributed uniformly, but concentrated in communities along our business, the free corridors, ports, and industrial areas. And this is a grim baseline we must change. I don't want to repeat other panelists' points, but present some of the most recent findings from my research group, looking at the increasing adoption projected by or outlined by the California Air Resources Board's scoping plan, which would, in the transportation sector mostly, that would deliver the immediate and the local air quality benefits. By replacing fossil fuel, mostly diesel engines, with hydrogen fuel cells, we projected a 43% reduction in the smog-forming NOx emissions. That is more than 10,000 tons of air pollutants removed from the atmosphere every year. And more importantly, we found nearly 20 percent drop in population exposure to find particulate matter. That are the particles that are small enough to penetrate our lungs, our bloodstream, to cause cardiovascular disease and a chronicle respiratory failure. And therefore, hydrogen is not just a climate tool, but a direct intervention to prevent pollutants, pollution in our populated urban centers. The human health impacts are also staggering. In the projected future 2045, adoption of hydrogen fuel cell technology would prevent nearly 300 premature deaths annually, and this translates to an estimated $3 billion in annual health savings. When we evaluate the cost of hydrogen infrastructure, we must include this health dividend in our balance sheet. Because it represent a strategy to reduce our state's long-term medical and economic burden caused by air pollution Another benefit of hydrogen is that it allowed us to target emission reductions Precisely where the health benefits or health disparities are the most acute We found that the communities historically hit The hardest by air pollution would gain the greatest from hydrogen deployment. Out of the 3 billion health benefits, 44% flows directly to the most burdened communities that located near the free corridors, ports, and industrial areas. By prioritizing hydrogen for the heavy-duty trucks, port vehicles, we are effectively removing the pollution tax these communities are paying for decades. And finally, our findings suggest one clear priority, the heavy-duty sector, as mentioned by other panelists. We found 70% of the total health and equity benefits are coming from this sector. Because hydrogen fuel cell would provide the range and refueling speed needed for the heavy-duty operation, it's an essential partner with battery electric technology. And the committee may consider prioritizing hydrogen refueling corridors in disadvantaged communities and accounting for the health savings in the full value of hydrogen in future fiscal analysis. Thank you for your time and commitment to a breathable future for all Californians.

Mr. Chair, thank you very much. I just wanted to thank for the testimony, to thank them very, very much for the testimony, because this is clearly something we need to focus on. And the more that we can get information out to the public about the benefits and the alternatives, we can't achieve our climate goals unless we utilize hydrogen. The Air Board has been very clear about that. But the public doesn't understand that, and we need to bring along other parts of the community that are still resisting. So I really appreciate your testimony here today. And I've seen the samples of air quality improvement moving the heavy, hard-to-decarbonized industries over to hydrogen, and it's imperative that we do it with utmost speed. So thank you very much for your testimony today. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Senator. So the state building trades, I'm going to speak specifically for my organization, the UA. I came out of 342 apprenticeship program. We were building hydrogen plants and hydrogen pipelines 34 years ago when I was an apprentice. We adapt our programs as technology adapts. We we move with the industry. I was a pipeline welder underground pipeline CO2 pipelines hydrogen all of the things that that are now coming around for somebody that my age I was trained and I was trained and I skilled in being able That the one thing you can take away from somebody is their apprenticeship and the skilled and trained environment in which they come from and the experience that they have So for the state building trades and our affiliates, we have been training and we have been advancing our curriculums since I got in 34 years ago.

300 miles and the diesel trucks, 18 wheelers moving down the road,

Well, I see the infrastructure needs to be planned, like, early on because it will take time to build. in the near term, we could probably prioritize, like given the tight budget, right? We need to really rigorously identify the regions that can deploy hydrogen that would make the biggest ban of the buck, right? So that's like a given tight resources. I think a prioritization is a key.

Hi, how are you? Hi. Yeah.

Good afternoon, committee chair and members, and thank you for inviting San Mateo County Transit District to participate in today's hearing. My name is Dave Harbour, Director of Bus Maintenance for San Mateo County Transit, or SamTrans. SamTrans provides bus and paratransit services throughout San Mateo County and to key regional destinations like San Francisco and Palo Alto. Most SamTrans riders rely on the bus to get where they need to go. Ninety-four percent are low-income and 68 percent are extremely low-income. Nearly 80 percent of our riders do not drive or own a car. For a ZEV transition, to meet CARB's Innovative Clean Transit requirements, or ICT, SamTrans is transitioning its fleet of more than 300 buses to both battery electric and hydrogen fuel cell buses. Our primary focus has been hydrogen fuel cell because it offers operating advantages for SamTrans, especially on longer routes with range and refueling times closer to conventional buses than battery electric buses, more conventional or diesel buses. Battery charging infrastructure would require more space and significantly higher upfront investment, and we had no clear timeline for when the commercial power needed at our bases would be available. In 2024, Sam Trans received its first 10 hydrogen buses, and in 2024, Sam Trans ordered another, an additional 108 hydrogen fuel cell buses, their largest purchase of its kind in North America. So far, out of the 108 buses, we have received 33, with the rest expected by mid-2027. By mid-2027, nearly half of Samtrans's fleet will be zero emission, with decisions on remaining fleets still ahead. We're currently operating 37 battery electric buses, too, along with the hydrogen buses. Samtrans has also invested heavily in workforce development, fueling, and maintenance infrastructure to support this transition, starting with temporary fueling and moving toward permanent hydrogen infrastructure that will sufficiently support growth well beyond the 118 hydrogen buses that are expected to be operating in 2027. Hydrogen remains an emerging market, and fuel supply and pricing are not yet as stable or established as they are for diesel, natural gas, or electricity. Continued investment, market growth, and state support will be critical to long-term success. Funding in ARCHES, SAMTRANS has assembled funding from local, regional, state, and federal sources for both hydrogen buses now being delivered and the infrastructure needed to support them. As a participant in the Alliance for Renewable Clean Hydrogen Energy Systems, or ARCHES, 1000 bus initiative Sam trans was expecting 33 million dollars to fund a major share of our hydrogen infrastructure With arches program now on hold we face a significant funding gap We are working with our legislative delegation to help restore that funding We're also pursuing competitive state grants including a 45 million dollar TERSIP application for the permanent hydrogen station facility upgrades and additional zero emission buses What the state can do to help. State partnerships will determine whether Samtrans can stay on track. First, we support protecting all greenhouse gas reduction fund dollars previously committed to public transportation. We are concerned that the recent change California Air Resources Board is proposing to the cap and invest program would cut greenhouse gas reduction fund revenues to two billion dollars a year At that level no new funding would be available for TIRCIP and or LC TOP in 2026 and 27. Second, Samtran supports reinstating a partial sales and use tax exemption for zero emission buses purchased by transit agencies. The state adopted this exemption in 2019 and it saved Samtrans nearly $50,000 per bus on average. The exemption expired at the end of 2025. Because sales and use taxes are assessed when buses are delivered, our next round of buses deliveries will cost about $4.76 million more than planned. We urge the legislature to restore this policy in the budget. Third, Samtrans supports legislation to increase axle weight limits for zero emission bus buses purchased by transit agencies current axle weight limits do not reflect the weight of available zero emission bus technology that mismatch could complete or complicate future bus purchases as we work to meet the state mandate so in conclusion Samtrans has made a major commitment to hydrogen because it offers real benefits even as it presents challenges we need continued partnership from the state to restore promised funding and advanced policies that keep this transition on track. That support will help us meet the state's mandate and continue the, meet the state's mandate, maintain reliable service for the communities that depend on this and continue the advancement of hydrogen technology. Thank you for the opportunity to share our experience at

sure thank you very much so sorry that's good all right so I'm Tyson Eckert Lee I'm a senior advisor at the governor's office of business and economic development focus on clean infrastructure and mobility and I also played a key role in launching arches and in securing the 1.2 billion dollar federal funding and of course you've heard a little bit about that illegal termination that happened in October so that's introduced quite a bit of disruption into the marketplace which we're talking about today and I think Sam Tran's feels very directly. I do remain hopeful on the federal front that we'll find a pathway to getting the funding. We're working kind of parallel paths and appeal with the Department of Energy but then also the legal track with our Attorney General's office and both seem to be going pretty well. But bottom line like my job is to help people come together and solve market problems and figure out how we can get it get it going in partnership with everybody and I am pretty hopeful just mainly because of the people here today I mean, you assembled quite a great hearing here, and there's hearing all these shared voices, common interest of pulling forward. The reality is, though, without the federal funding, you know, that big shock to the system, we have to recalibrate and figure out, okay, what can we do without that federal funding? Because we can't assume that it's going to come. And we need to do that based on everything that we've learned from this. And so when we're pulling the ARCHES application together, you know, organized around a statewide system, we put out the solicitation. We got $56 billion worth of project proposals, which is pretty incredible. And as we were kind of going through, even with a pullback, the reality is that private capital is available to invest into this market so long as we have secure offtake and secure demand. And so that's really, really central to this. And so what we're thinking about is like organizing around really two central targets as far as our state policy and state actions and industry actions. It's really number one is demand creation. So, you know, making sure that there's credit worthy off takers who can be leveraged to help bring private capital into finance. And then the second one is cost reduction. You heard a little bit about that from Sam Tran. So those are kind of two mutually reinforcing concepts. And the key really is just getting started. You know, so what are we getting molecules flowing through the marketplace? And so, you know, what are we doing to get started? You know, partnering with groups like First Public Hydrogen to help aggregate demand, make it easier to secure new supply and make it easier for bus operators to get that supply. We're working to connect the dots on the fuel cell electric truck market. You know, so if you look at the fund, there's various funding sources that have been successfully deployed, like Air District funding, Energy Commission funding. We have about 15 stations that are funded that are just waiting for that market signal to move forward. You know, they need the fleet commitments to make that happen. The Energy Commission has funding on the street right now, that $45 million HIPPO grant, the HIPO. forgive me I forgot what the acronym stands for but hydrogen is is the first word and so you know and that you that creates opportunity really to connect like you know the San Pedro ports you'll hear from Heather later to the inland inland valleys and clean up that I 710 corridor but really to get this market going it all comes down to total cost of ownership and so you have to look at it from the entire value chain it's the cost of the truck the cost of the fuel, it's the maintenance, it's the insurance, all that stuff. And you heard that like on the train set, for example, so there's a lot of advantages that hydrogen fuel cells offer. And so just, you know, one anecdote prior to cancellation, Arches had put out a request for qualifications. We went to the OEMs and said, hey, if we want to do a 5,000 truck program, how much money would you need to get there to get a total cost of ownership that competes with diesel? And we had two scenarios, you know $10 per kilogram or $5 per kilogram at $10 it was you know about 400 to $500,000 per truck to get there at $5 is about a hundred thousand to 200,000 so pretty market decrease and so the cost of fuel really matters and they kind of big takeaway lesson from there is like with stable incentives and consistent deployment you can get to by 2035 we could get to a place where without subsidies you're competing on a total cost of ownership with diesel and so that's pretty pretty encouraging but it is extremely sensitive to fuel cost and kind of brings us back to that key is like really getting the market flowing getting molecules flowing and so we're looking at multiple sectors it's not just transportation you know it's you've heard a bit the power sector is a big part fertilizer data centers industrial uses anything that gets the molecules flowing through the economy helps us drive scale and bring down costs and great opportunities. And then the last thing I'll say is this on the permit streamlining front, of course, when we invest, we need to get these projects into the ground. A huge thanks to this panel, Senator Occioleta. You have SB 1291, SB 1418, which we're implementing at GOBiz, and we're making some good progress. Five communities are in process for that streamlined designation. Senator Caballero, we have the SB 1420 for the arches projects and all the funding. That's really helpful too and then at go biz we are in the process of updating our guidebook and expanding that our permit streamlining guidebook not just stations but the whole value chain and we hope that will be helpful but it takes a lot of education to get there and so in closing just you know it takes all of us to make this market work and I appreciate you pulling this together

Heather Tomley, thank you so much for the presentation. And now let's hear from Lorraine Esquette.

They're projects with sites that are identified and they're projects that are waiting for what we FID final investment decision one of the gaps that we're seeing that came out of this aggregation we shortlisted them we brought them in as qualified vendors for suppliers for our municipal partners there are some cities there's some transit agencies who are going to participate as off takers in this first aggregation but it's something that you've heard from many of the participants today like any new part of the economy especially the green economy wind and solar and geothermal you don't get past that FID unless you can see a future visibility into long-term revenue stream that means more than a year of revenue to pay for the project traditional hydrogen players self-fund we have legacy players that are international with big balance sheets from 65 billion to over a hundred billion that dominate the hydrogen supply and are critical to our hydrogen adoption and transit agencies but as we look to those projects in California by non-traditional production suppliers they need and I think Tyson had another term for it they need to know they can continue to sell that over a 10-year period at a minimum and so we're working very hard to bridge that gap at First Public Hydrogen Authority and we're excited that despite some of the headwinds that were mentioned by Heather at the federal level and some other headwinds we've seen in the market in California we still do have project proponents located in the state who want to build these projects and provide a new more diverse green hydrogen supply for transit agencies and others who are adopting transit in their operations I also want to mention that first public hydrogen Authority that we're working closely with private sector partners who are part of the value chain who are trying to bring in new equipment supply and address some of these value chain constraints especially since the Colton incident and we're also working with private developers who are looking at micro grids at the ports they're looking at micro grids in other areas and other communities we're working with them to identify hydrogen that's under $10 in some cases under six dollars so they can have a drop in fuel to replace diesel or natural gas and build some more of these smaller distributed energy projects for energy capacity it could be for a data center a lot of folks are focused on that right now but there are plenty community needs even municipal based needs that are looking for additional energy capacity and looking to green hydrogen as a drop in fuel for that senator Archuleta I do want to thank you for your unwavering support of hydrogen. We've been in front of you and the rest of this committee who have also been very supportive of the hydrogen economy for many years. And it is with gratitude that you continue to shine a spotlight on the benefits of what hydrogen can do across the economy. I also want to shout out, they're not here today, but one of our very critical partners in Los Angeles that's helping the larger Southern California region is Los Angeles Department of Water and Power. They're advancing their scatter good power plant repower from natural gas to hydrogen capable. It's not far away from the port complex. That alone is one of the most significant international developments to send a market signal for these producers to produce. If they blend just 30 percent, it's 300 tons per day. The port could use 5 to 10 tons per day. If we can bring it in at scale at $3 or $4, we can take some of that and share it with the ports. We can take some of that and share it with the drainage companies. and we can have immediate accelerated public health benefits for these frontline communities along those corridors. So we're very happy to see them do that. I want to close by saying we still need a little bit more, though. And you've heard from a lot of participants today, we need money and we need market signals. And we're seeing some of these transit agencies who are going to buy more buses. We were seeing some of these transit agencies who want to build stations and expand, but they need the funding. And then we're seeing other electric service providers who may want to convert to green hydrogen-capable equipment, and they need those strong market signals through the SB100, whether it's statutory or regulatory. So thank you, Chair, for this opportunity, and we look forward to working with the rest of the committee. I know that my colleagues are just ready to jump in with some questions. Comments? Please.

Sure. So I think, I mean, broadly speaking, investing in demand is really helpful, right? So it's like that secure demand and then you can bring private capital in to do the supply. I think taking care of transits, you know, a lot of it just comes down to investment in that market signals, like Lorraine was saying, you know, if we're able to signal to the power sector to purchase hydrogen and if we're able to keep the transits going, fuel cell trucks coupling with everything at the Port of Long Beach is leading on, you know,

No, I totally agree with what Tyson said, and I'll be more specific, because we've had our heads down in the market this year and last year, trying to support communities and what communities are doing, transit agencies and ports and others. And what I seeing is the most important thing if you could do it today you know if I could wiggle my nose is to redeploy some funding for the transit agencies They already made a commitment for these buses They already made a commitment to build the fueling station and the infrastructure They're already working together to collaborate with us, with Tyson, with the airport, with the ports, to try to send a market signal for this new supply. But they just need money for buses. They need money for fueling infrastructure. And they've already made their own financial commitments. And so if the state could step in and redeploy some funds or even create some flexibility at the airboard, if there's money that's in the HVIP that hasn't been utilized for the private drainage fleets, maybe in this budget year, the public fleets, the Samtrans and the Foothills and the Pasadenas and North Counties and others who have plans but had to cancel them or pull them back to buy these buses, even had buses ordered, that would help for 2026.

yeah yeah in I think just to kind of add to the conversation here is for us end users or us transit agencies there's there's some unique elements just besides the technology one is that when we replaced buses it was always on a schedule and it was really dictated on what the federal transportation agency the 12-year useful life so that's how we scheduled our okay so what we didn't have to do typically in the past is build the fueling facility so what carbon asks us to do and I've been in this industry for now about 20 years and on the committees through CTA is that they they were looking at the buses right the the end result of the tailpipe emissions but not the infrastructure side so I would say transit agencies where they fell in their replacements usually a buses they found themselves in a shortfall of infrastructure or buses or both or one or the other and in our case we we actually aligned our funding and our grants well enough to where the buses weren't an issue for for purchasing the buses it was the infrastructure and so that where we kind of got caught the buses are coming you know it it the chicken and egg egg cart and horse and you know that but again it an extra element that we didn have to think about in the past or wasn necessary but it it all new technology so there a risk component to it

say both um i'm for samtrans it's definitely infrastructure the buses we're good with the the buses but other other agencies it could be the buses they're fine with the

Well, because we're in conversation with so many municipal stakeholders and transit agencies and others, we can come back to you with a number and the chair and the rest of the committee, because there are transit agencies who have canceled station plans or canceled their bus orders. So we can do that and come back. But we've been trying so hard to keep momentum going, as you know, with hydrogen, with the equipment and the vehicles and the stationary fuel cells and new production. And California is such an incredible leader internationally in the green energy space. And I think with some things this year that the legislature can do in the executive branch, we can maintain the momentum. We can continue to have that place on an international stage to advance hydrogen across the economy. and you know we would be we would be pleased to come back and talk through some of those ideas with you but what we're seeing in the in the field right now I think that would be really important because the hydrogen hub had interest in private and with private investors and it was contingent upon having the federal government in the state engaged in expediting the processes and making sure that we had pipeline safety and everything down and so that number may be different now that there's no federal support for it but would be helpful I think for us to know from a budget perspective so that we can if we don't plan it this year we can at least start looking at next year and you know the years out so that there can be the commitment and the reason I asked I asked about the waste is that it their waste is in a different fund and it may be that there's opportunities to say

Here. The overall committee discussion today and on this panel discussion, I understand you're coming from the government lens on things. As Senate Transportation Chair and over the years that I've been here, just five and a half years, at this level of government, I've come to learn that getting general fund money for transportation is really, really difficult. It's not considered, at least we're told, it's not considered to be a line item of the general fund, period, full stop. it's the money that we were able to get which is basically a tourist augmentation a few years ago about 11 billion dollars has been ripped off collateralized and sometimes even intra-agency to use for operations instead of infrastructure like you're talking about which to me is horrific and extraordinarily short-sighted I would guess if we get into a situation again where the GAN initiative forces us to find places to put infrastructure dollars, you know, it would be great if you could get to the front of that line somehow because I think the stuff you're talking about would qualify. if there are non-general fund buckets or prospective buckets or you know whatever that we can help try to navigate please let me know obviously the budget subcommittee on transportation would want to know that as well I would hope I don't really have the philosophical discussion with them on hydrogen but it's certainly something I'm happy to help advocate whatever we can do in terms of our you know committee position and the folks good folks I have surrounded myself with in terms of the working on transportation issues being a believer in so Senator Cavallaro kind of referred to it as a the diversity of fuel sources. I don't really, I've never really understood, I understand it and I don't understand it, but sort of the, from the legislative seat, what seems like a monopolization of, or a desire to come to one non-fossil fuel alternative source for everything going forward. It hasn't worked real well so far. And it really actually not the history of transportation fuel I mean the fact that you can but you see two prices diesel and gasoline when you pull into or drive by any service stage I drive by most of the time and I'm driving to EV, but it's telling. Why wouldn't there be hydrogen stations that have an EV alternative or vice versa? Great choice. There sure seems to be consumer market demand potential out there. I understand the risk factor in this whole chicken and the egg thing. And that said, do you see this early adoption strategy with government fleets, port, et cetera, which I endorse? I came from 12 years on the Santa Clara County Board of Supervisors and eight years in the city of San Jose. And I think Santa Clara County was the first government entity in the state, for sure, that entered into a contract with Bloom Energy, 100% established a goal to be 100% carbon neutral and so on. So I know when we did that, it not only sent market signals, but it created opportunities like this for the partners themselves to come in and not say this is what we should do, but this is what we're actually doing. here, and the rooms start to fill up, frankly, with consultants and folks who want to go out and turn public sector investment into private sector capital models. So I'm all for that. My question is, and I think to get there, you've already laid out the challenge, and I've kind of, as usual, laid out the challenges. You know, where is this money going to come from, although I've offered to help, right? If we do that, going back to Senator Caballero's comment about passenger vehicle challenge that's out there, not just in terms of access, that's obvious because we haven't become enough of a thing yet to become ubiquitous. We haven't seen the private sector investment. We haven't even done the public sector investment yet, fully at least. There are some real obstacles, massive obstacles out there that electrification brings, especially when you look at multifamily development, of which we have something like 6 million residents in the state of California who are basically completely locked out of the EV market. I know Senator Nilo has had some lived experience in the new car market, but we have a situation right now where, as I understand it from direct conversations, especially with domestic manufacturers, they're in a race, which is basically driven by battery technology, a race they want to win against a lot of international competition. So they, to some degree, they have blinders on around, you know, hydrogen or anything else. And probably if you're them, you can only focus so much capital on one thing at one time and be successful. The dealers themselves on the retail side are facing a flattening, if not declining, market. And part of that is because the low fruit on EVs you know electric vehicles has itself you know started to dry up You know single homeowners who are affluent enough to install chargers and get the infrastructure in place on their own dime have done that you know by and large Not over, but, you know, a lot of that has been done. The rest of the world that's out there, you know, people in poverty, people who are not in poverty, but they are in relative poverty, in a sense they're never going to buy a home in this kind of economy, are locked out. Perfect opportunity for hydrogen. it would seem. Does your sector have to, you know, develop the momentum first in the market demand? I'm really asking now almost a macroeconomic question, but, you know, this idea of we need to create market demand first, and then the private capital will follow. I'd love to see private capital say hydrogen has been adopted by ports, by fleets, by the state of California. And so now we have enough risk mitigation to go out and start setting up shops along Highway 5 to buy independent gas station locations and turn them to hydrogen locations next to multifamily housing projects. so those renters can come by and fill up their hydrogen vehicles. What is the reality of that happening, that kind of an investment synergy occurring? I mean, are we running on hope here, or is there a way to actually stimulate that? Does anybody have a feel for that? Or is what you described it? And if that's it, that's okay. I mean, I'm willing to try, you know, use public money wherever we can get it to try to fund the public side of it and then hope the rest of it comes along. That's the truth. I'm just asking for an answer. Great question.

I'm just trying to get to whether or not there's some natural triggers to the capital investment that would logically occur.

So I think that all the motivation in the world is there with long haul right now. I mean, those folks talk to us, and they're desperate. And the folks that own the truck stops along Highway 5, let's talk to you all the time. They're ready to go right now. They don't really have grant programs sufficient enough for any kind of – the combination of things that they need to pull that lever are not there right now. And that's, I guess, part of what I'm saying. and maybe the question is a little bit unfair for a panel overview today, but I think it would help us to see further analysis delivered to us on where anticipated levers would be to stimulate, to get to the tipping point on some of this activity where we have willing partners like property owners and current fuel dealers and long-haul truckers and automobile dealers on the retail side. I was talking about, Senator, before you were here.

We will sell whatever they make for us.

Well, Senator, as the chair of the Transportation Committee, I'm glad you're in the room. And but any other questions or comments?

California is the second largest hydrogen market in the nation outside of Texas second largest hydrogen market in the nation outside of Texas hydrogen has been in California for decades I think almost 80 years we have a dedicated hydrogen pipeline in Southern California it's been there for probably about 40 years One of the previous speakers helped work on carbon pipelines and hydrogen pipelines in California. But it's mostly for heavy industry. These new users, these new end-use cases like in vehicles or in stationary fuel cells, don't access the market the way large users access it and with their commercial efficiencies and the commercial acumen. And so if we can come together and create some cooperation with those who are first movers like Sam Trans and work together to access an aggregated approach to purchasing hydrogen, work together an aggregated approach to acquiring some of the equipment and maybe even supporting some new station build, that could help disrupt the market. and also provide some market transparency. What we've seen collectively in California in the mobility market and transportation are swings of up to $85. I have seen $85 a kilogram in the most northern part of the state, and that's not okay. We've seen $65 a kilogram. Those market swings aren because production is swinging It just marking it to market So if we come together and we work together and we demand lower prices over a longer term get under get under get under And if we can lock in that supply and have consistent delivery, help reduce the delivery costs, because that's expensive too, the cheapest part of hydrogen is producing it and not have huge swings in how much it's going to cost to have that tube trailer drop it off, and we start to work together and kind of change the way we approach hydrogen in the market, it will make it easier for transit agencies, drayage, fleet operators, to use hydrogen over the long term, and it will bring the cost down across the board. Thank you. Well, let me go ahead and finish up. Senator, go right ahead. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I want to apologize. I'm between committees. we have our Olympic and large sporting events subcommittee meeting today and Olympics or hydrogen it was a it's been a tough choice but I I wanted to make sure to be here and I want to thank the chair for bringing this group together for the invitation to be a part of this the subcommittee and very important that we think about our energy source now given what we're seeing in the world given what we've gone through nationally and some of the roadblocks we have. It's all hands on deck. It's all sources on deck. It's how we're going to move toward the future. So I'm really excited to be here and looking forward to more of these hearings and discussions. And I had questions, but I will see where we are in the agenda to ask some of my questions, because I have a lot of questions. but I will wait to hear where we are and then come back to me when you're ready. Yes, please. Jump in. With the fact that it seems like it's communications, you know, I think we're right in the brink. I mean, California, we heard, was the second largest market in the nation. Well, obviously we'd like to be the first. We have the manpower. We have the workforce. We have the technology. We've got universities. it just we're right at the edge and as we get close to the Olympics you know we're we're right at the at the starting gate and but we need to get get that thing going obviously losing that 1.5 billion dollars Arches took a back seat now and I think we're looking for California in the industries all of them coming together to backfill what's going on and that's why it's so vital that that public and private come together. And I guess we're looking to go biz to understand that if they would take the lead, then industries would jump in. Lancaster is about to build a humongous plant there. They're going to try and light up the whole city on hydrogen. Later we're going to hear from people that they're in the brink of new discoveries. We are on the edge, and I'm hoping that, Mr. Eckerle, you understand that you're vital at this meeting as transportation, and each one of the senators that are looking for the technology to be part of, the workforce development, teaching our young men and women to be part of this future. So it's vital. But so in your question Tyson is the fact that it how we can better coordinate these agencies to accelerate the deployment through public knowledge What do we need to do to shake the trees One of the senators mentioned low-hanging fruit, but what do we need to do to get you on board to help us all in the industry to promote hydrogen? And that is, we heard 108 vehicles, fuel cell battery buses are already in the order. in my community, city of Montebello, they've ordered 10. Foothill Transit just ordered 30 fuel cell batteries. That's technicians. That's jobs. I've driven the buses myself, and the drivers that I talk to, the mechanics that I talk to, they love it. And we also heard that, granted, the fuel is a little high, no doubt, But the maintenance factor is so economically feasible that, you know, the industry is saying if we can just drop the fuel cost plus the maintenance that we already are enjoying, we're going to be moving this thing along easily. So the questions are what can the state do? And Joe Biz jumping in. Yeah. Well, we're all fully on board at Go Biz and been working on this for a while. And I think the big challenge with hydrogen is, you know, it's both its strength and its challenge is that it touches so many areas. It touches so many agencies. So that's that's a great asset. But it also becomes a challenge when you're a developer trying to align funding from various sources. So I think the more we can collectively think of this as investing in a system, like you're not investing in just buses, buses, you're investing in Samtrans to deliver buses, which includes the fuel, the stations, the buses, and bringing flexibility to those funding programs, I think would be really helpful. It's similar to on the truck side, you get the same type of thing. It's not just investing in supply. If you're a developer going to develop a project, you have to line up funding from Air Resources Board, from the Energy Commission, from whatever else, you know, transit authority. And so, like, those cycles are not all in alignment. That's one of the things we're trying to work through as agencies to get that better alignment and make it easier for the end user perspective. So I think that's maybe one broad answer. We are working on a hydrogen market development strategy to get everybody on the same page and make sure, you know, there's a shared understanding of where our priorities are. And I think, you know, taking a step back, you know, right now we just need to hit some singles, using the baseball analogy, to kind of keep the market going and get molecules flowing. And we can, as we're going through and just making sure we're working really closely with the industry and the end users to make sure that we're answering their questions and concerns. And my next question is to Heather Tomley. Heather, what policies and infrastructure and the investments should we be looking at to accelerate deployment in the ports, Long Beach, up and down the state? What do you think we should be doing? What we've heard from the users, from the operators, everybody that's used the fuel cell equipment has liked it. Operationally, it works well. It meets the needs. and so there's a lot of interest in it from the operators, also from the labor that operates the equipment has been really positive about hydrogen. So it has a lot of really positive things about it Where we seen the reluctance is the concern about you know what is the long outlook for hydrogen Is this something that going to be supported over the long term Is the fuel going to continue to be available? Is the price going to be offered at a stable level? And so for the folks that have invested when the fuel supplies are not available and they need to park the trucks, that's a big disruption. And the others look around and they see that and they wonder, is this really a good investment for us? And so I think that's the biggest challenge. If we could focus on anything, the interest is there. People like the fuel cell equipment. Where we have the challenge is building that confidence that the fuel supplies are going to continue to be available and they're going to be available at a stable cost. So whatever we can do from the policy perspective to prop that up, build that confidence that the fuel supplies will be available and that they'll be affordable, that would be key to get people to be interested in buying into it long term. They need to have certainty that that's going to be available. And before I hit my closing remarks, I'm going to address to David Harbour. Tell us more about this zero emission vehicle axle weight problem. So the zero emission vehicle axle weight, there's an axle weight regulation, and I believe it's 20,500 pounds. What the issue that's come about with the zero emission bus is the batteries are heavier than the engine was because there's multiple batteries. Even a hydrogen fuel cell bus is a battery electric hydrogen fuel cell. It's a fuel cell that's like a hybrid. It charges the batteries that are on top of the bus. They have far fewer batteries. However, that weight is still, there's a distribution challenge there for the bus manufacturers. So the bus manufacturers are having a hard time meeting the axle weights, the state axle weights. Well, I wanted to bring out, ladies and gentlemen, today we didn't just talk about the rah-rah about hydrogen. We also talked about the issues that are facing the industry, issues that are facing the buses and so on. And before I do close, let's hear from Smallwood Cuevas, our senator. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair, and thank you, colleagues, for entertaining me. I'm going to keep my questions brief. You know, I represent South Central Los Angeles, and one of the things we have concerns about is, one, is how do we ensure that there's economic opportunity, what kinds of jobs of the future are going to come out of this new sector that we certainly want to invest in as it helps us reach our climate goals and also we hope builds a workforce a large workforce in the future so my question the other issue that we care about deeply is health health and safety we have some of the highest asthma rates we have some of the highest health disparities in in the state and our community is deeply concerned about safety and we know this offers some alternatives that can be beneficial but some of the data is is not clear so I'm just curious you know as we're thinking about these technologies and and we know that there will be rigorous safety standards and and public perception can really help shape the success of a deployment or the lack thereof and and I think we want to have success in the deployment so so what should California steps what steps should we take to improve the public understanding and confidence around hydrogen safety I had the opportunity to see the last bucket of coal out in in in Utah and see this amazing facility that LAWP has been tending to for for years transitioning our state out of coal and into a natural gas hydrogen combine which is very exciting but I think we need my neighbors don't understand they don't know what hydrogen hydrogen is they don't know what what the safety precautions are and I think there's something about the community education that is just sorely lacking so if we could talk a little bit about how we're building their understanding how we're connecting communities to this energy source so that we're not repeating some of the habits of and failures of the past that we're bringing folks along in the process and understanding the benefits of this technology and this energy source. Feel free to jump in. Any one of you? So I'll start and then if others would like to address the issue. So I'm Heather Tomlin with the Port of Long Beach, so we're neighbors. We at the Port of Long Beach, you touched on a few different things with jobs, with air quality, and with community education and engagement. So on a few different points there, we're anticipating at the Port of Long Beach, we could see a doubling in cargo through 2050. We know that the economic demand will continue to be there. Cargo will continue to grow. What's really critically important to us is as we grow, we grow green. And so that's why we're setting our sights on zero emissions. And hydrogen is a critical part of that going forward, along with battery electric technologies as well. So going forward in the goods movement industry in Southern California, we recognize we're an economic engine. We're a huge job opportunity for a lot of folks in the local community. And so getting involved with goods movement opportunities, I think, is certainly an area from a workforce development standpoint that we're very focused on. We do a lot of work education in the local schools, even down to middle school grades up through college, and really work on trying to support job pathways into the goods movement sector. And a part of that is also understanding the zero emission and the cleaner technologies and making sure that we've got a trained workforce that's able to maintain and operate that equipment. So we're making a lot of investments in that direction as well. Another thing that we're also very involved with is our community education and outreach. We work really closely with the local communities, and we also have a regular outreach and engagement with the local community, with the environmental justice organizations, to really provide a lot of information about what we're doing, where the challenges remain, where we continue to focus our efforts, and provide information as we're working on new technologies, demonstration projects, new strategies that we're looking to implement to help to provide education on what we're doing and receive input from the community on where we can continue to focus and improve our efforts going forward. So that continues to be a big part of our process. It's something that we partner on in many cases with our neighbor, Port of Los Angeles, because a lot of our our impacts on the local communities are shared. And so that engagement is also really important for us to make sure that we're being clear and being open and transparent about the things that we're doing. I really appreciate that and hope that we can move some of that education further north, up the 110 to South Central Los Angeles where we have an incredible amount of industrial property you know second to Detroit in manufacturing cars We have a huge workforce, skilled workforce in that region. And whatever I can do to be supportive as labor chair here in the state senate, also sitting on the workforce development board to help us think through, you know, what does it mean to be a hydrogen technician or whatever those classifications are, what kinds of pre-apprenticeship, apprenticeship trainings we need to develop. Is this a, you know, a one-to-one transition from, you know, a fossil fuel, you know, petroleum refinery job into, you know, a hydrogen, you know, logistical job? I think these are some of the questions. And unfortunately, we've done a lot to set goals and benchmarks for our climate resilient future. We have not done the same work to build a roadmap for the workforce to sustain our climate resilient future. And I think that's something that why I'm excited to be on this subcommittee is because I think we have to prioritize that. And certainly I think Californians who are making and have made a tremendous investment want to ensure that there is a return. and the profit sharing is in the quality jobs, right, that we create. So I just wanted to add that, Mr. Chair. I have more questions, but I know this won't be our last subcommittee, and I will make sure I get questions to the panels that I missed. But looking forward to the continued conversation and figuring out how we diversify our energy source so that we can keep California humming like we need it to do. So thank you. Thank you. And panelists, will you please keep your seats? while we ask the general public to come up in just a second. But I'd like to thank you for being here, and certainly the committee members who have stayed a lot longer than we have to, but I appreciate it. So in my closing, again, thank you. And for those attending, thank you as well. I believe today's discussion made clear that hydrogen is no longer simply a future possibility. It is an emerging part of California's clean energy and economic landscape. We heard about real-world deployment, growing investment, public health, air quality benefits, workforce opportunities, the important role of public agencies. They are ready to play in the implementation of hydrogen. And I'd like to thank GO-Biz for their participation as well. At the same time, today's conversation reinforced that California must continue approaching hydrogen thoughtfully. strategically, ensuring that investments deliver measurable public health benefits, strengthens our economy, improves air quality, and supports communities across the state, especially the most impacted by pollution. And we go across the state to make sure that everyone understands that hydrogen is safe. It is their part of our future. And I want to thank you all once again, the speakers, for sharing their time, their expertise. and perspectives with the committee. Your insights will help inform future conversations about how California can continue leading in clean energy innovation while remaining focused on practical outcomes and public benefits. And to remember, the workforce development is so important in this element, including everyone equally across the board, giving them an opportunity. So with that, I'd like to open the floor to public comments. Please keep it down to a couple of minutes so in the interest of the time that we been here So would you please begin state your name and what you like to say Thank you, Chair Archuleta. Can you guys hear me okay? My name is Janice Lynn, and I'm the founder of the Green Hydrogen Coalition. I'd like to start by thanking you for your leadership and all the senators on this committee and all our panelists panelists here and the panelists that came before you know given world events right now there has never been a more important time to have this conversation and for the state of California to lead on this topic the Green Hydrogen Coalition is an educational nonprofit so we are mission driven and what we are about is accelerating the deployment of scaled alternative fuels I think Senator Caballero mentioned this earlier it's about energy diversity fuel diversity energy security and because our fertilizers are made from fuels too it's about food security and what the amazing thing is about hydra we've been talking about hydrogen as an alternative fuel and trucks and cars but it is also the essential energy carrier for so many other fuels that are in demand here fuels and chemicals and fertilizers that are in demand here in California but also globally so with the right moves we believe that California can not only stabilize our energy costs create jobs clean our air but we have literally an uncapped market potential from a global standpoint right and we are positioned so well on the coast to be exporting these valuable low-carbon fuels to Japan Singapore and other places we agree with everything said thus far and what I heard was a question about what is the catalyst what is that tipping point and I wanted to speak specifically to an opportunity for that market signal in the power sector and I'd like to give a shout out for chair Archuleta and senator Caballero for co-authoring Senate bill 1350 this is a super important bill that is a tip it is a catalyst for accelerating our renewable hydrogen fuel supply because it enables utilities publicly owned utilities, all utilities, to utilize renewable hydrogen in gas turbines. This is an environmentally responsible way to fully decarbonize our power sector and achieve reliability and affordability because we're reusing existing assets that are already paid for and needed for electric system reliability. Just another minute. Okay, I'll be really quick. We've been working with the state building and construction trades on this bill. It literally costs, it's a very important market signal to unlock large demand. And I'll just give you an example. So in Los Angeles, ScatterGood, which is a once-through cooling plant that's getting converted to a hydrogen turbine, at a 30% hydrogen blend, it will require 18,000 kilograms of renewable hydrogen per hour. that's sufficient demand to start thinking about how do we get a dedicated hydrogen pipeline down to scatter good down to Harbor Hanes and the port of Long Beach and port of LA and by having that dedicated pipeline we can lower the transport cost and get to a very low delivery cost that will create an attractive value proposition so and I'll close by just saying that your leadership on Senate bill 1350 is very timely because we have shovel ready renewable hydrogen projects that are ready to go now and yes we lost for the time being these grants through arches but there are other ways to get funding from the federal government through investment tax credits but those have a sunset and so this this bill that if enacted would provide the needed market signal to help these projects come to fruition thank you for your leadership and I'm happy to be a resource going forward thank you thank you for your presentation and comments chair centers my name is Mikhail Skowar on behalf of the California hydrogen coalition our members represent virtually every publicly available hydrogen station the state of California and a large portion of the merchant hydrogen plants globally as well as auto manufacturers who are majority of vehicles fuel cell vehicles on the road why extend our appreciation for this hearing the opportunity to testify it's champions like those on this committee that have allowed us to get off the ground number of you have sponsored bills for CEC GHC or CHBC over the years that have helped us kind of make those initial kind of hurdles that we were stumbling within you know the mid you know teens you know 2015 we had some struggles with permitting we've accomplished a lot of goals with regard to that and are able to open up stations also due to the effort of go biz working with local communities and governments to help us kind of overcome some of those initial transitional hurdles and while we've made a lot of progress with the policy here additional policies necessary for the foundations and while the federal government is pulled back we have this opportunity to continue to lay the groundwork necessary to kind of build on for our carbon neutrality future as well as our clean energy goals as Janice was mentioning and want to align our comments with that there are couple questions that came up over the course of this hearing that I wanted to touch on real quick senator Cortese when it comes to labor it was your bill SB 740 that brought skilled and trained labor for all hydrogen production projects we want to send our appreciation on that so that base is covered additionally senator Cabrera you're down with us at Fresno City a couple years ago where our members funded the community college curriculum in the state of California for fuel cell technicians and so again community colleges are able to you know where they're getting their trained mechanics they can also get credentialed in fuel cell technicians so we're covering our bases there to make sure that the workforce is available at time either through the apprenticeship programs with the building trades or their various crafts or within the community colleges system for the auto technicians also carb has been a great partner over the course of time low carbon fuel standard cannot express how important that is for us to not only develop stations but produce renewable hydrogen it was mentioned that there's a standard of 33 point 3 percent renewable hydrogen carb is elevated that to 80 percent by 2030 for the hydrogen sector in transportation we are currently delivering a vast majority of the molecules as renewable and zero carbon and have been for years that continues to be the pace and as LCFS gets out of this bank deficit issue we will see that continue to go forward and we'll continue to invest in that space carbon neutrality is going to require everything and the things we haven't thought of hydrogen's Critical role in that transition as a scoping plan is highlighted We're going to continue to invest our members have big plans and big announcements for later this year that will bring to you I believe my partners already emailed Cortese hunt a number of the issues that you brought up with regard to some of the Industry needs in terms of policy We're working with PUC CC and carve diligently every day to make sure that we have that transitional authority and the policy necessary to bring clean renewable hydrogen and the stations online at a appropriate pace and then again it's kind of what would it take to have the right appropriate number of stations through the fuel cell partnership there have been a number of studies essentially if we get to a thousand stations everyone's going to be about the same distance as they are from current gas station right now we're at about 52 stations we're supposed to be at a hundred by 2020 so we are behind and a number of the bills that you guys have run are helping to accelerate that pace it's just a matter of getting through kind of you know the setbacks that we've had at the federal level while continuing to push through in California you know kind of tight budget situation but there's a number of policies moving forward carbs extended this manufacturing decarbonization incentive that shall help us decarbonize industrial facilities which will be important and kind of backfill some of the IRA and IAJ dollars that we thank you for your comments thank you thank you senators I'm Michael Pim tell me the executive director of the California Transit Association we represent 85 transit and rail agencies in the state including Sam transfer Hill trans and several of the other agencies that were mentioned here today there's been a lot of discussion around the adverse federal actions that have been advanced against the state to clawback resources to defund the types of projects that were talked about here today what I want to note is that we are on the precipice of the exact same type of action here in the state of California as many of you may know CARB is in the process of promulgating rules related to the cap and invest program that will defund GGRF by two billion dollars and so to put that into perspective that means zeroing up funding for the transit and interstate rail capital program that has allowed agencies to move forward with fuel cell electric buses battery electric buses and many other projects it also means defunding the low carbon trans operations program that has supported very many of the same purposes also note we have some one-time monies zero emission transit capital program that is intended to help facilitate this transition and build out the infrastructure all of that is on the line with the proposed amendments being advanced by the California resources board our association has been leading a coalition some of the organizations that have been raising concerns about this approach forward and asking for legislative intervention with CARB to get some redressing what I wanted to further note however is that we have had some successful tools beyond funding that had been in place in previous years one of them was a sales and use tax exemption for zero emission bus purchase and mr. Harbor I mentioned that in his testimony that is a sales and use tax exemption that lapsed in 2025 that we've been working diligently to try to restore we've been looking for legislative champions help carry that forward that is real money in the pockets of agencies to allow them to expand their zero emission bus fleets And then finally, I wanted to note that as we continue to make progress on these fronts, it is important for us to continue to work with the California Resources Board to direct new incentives to the transition to these zero technologies That is only of course achievable with GGRF revenues so would encourage you to continue to engage on those runs Thank you for your presentation and comments We'll get a copy of the letter very good go right ahead. Greetings chair and members of the committee my name is Marquis King Mason with Natural Resources Defense Council we just wanted to come today to uplift our low carbon fertilizers study budget ask with Senator McNerney's office. They're asking for a million dollars to have the CEC with in partnership with CDFA study low carbon fertilizer options. We think this is great and timely given right now that green hydrogen can be a major input and fuel stock for low carbon fertilizers. Additionally with everything that's going on in Iran and gas prices we think it's very timely to make sure that we're incentivizing and studying how we can decarbonize a fertilizer. So we'll follow up with all the committee members with our budget ask and our language and our backgrounder and thank you so much for your leadership. Appreciate it. Very good. Thank you. Thank you. Hello, everyone. My name is Paul Sandhu. I'm the head of Proton H2. I want to tell you a little bit about our technology. So our technology is focused on taking idle, abandoned or uneconomical oil assets and converting them into hydrogen assets. So these assets that are idle are a major pollutant. they contribute to a majority of the methane emissions in the California sky and so what we're trying to do is we're trying to take some of the energy some of the pressure some of the temperature that's still embedded in these oil and gas assets which is causing these methane leaks and and converting that into hydrogen so that will produce a low cost less than a dollar per kilogram low CI hydrogen product that then can be mobilized it can be transported to wherever it's needed supporting buses and trains and cars but also industry producing ammonia but then also can generate power as well you can convert it into power the power will cost less than five cents per kilowatt hour so I I want to bring this technology to your attention. We are focused on working more in California and working with you to get things going, but we really want to make hydrogen an alternative energy source in California, so it's part of the solution. We really believe that scale and low cost is going to get us there. So we just need more hydrogen and more industry hands so they can work with it. So that's our mission.

Thank you.

You're welcome. Next up.

Ilo, thank you all for your time today. Good afternoon. My company is, I found it, is called Geoammonia, and I just want to talk to you about an industrial use case for hydrogens. So in California, you produce about one-third of all agricultural products in the United States. But the problem is you have the most expensive ammonia in the United States. And ammonia, let's just say ammonia is fertilizer. It's used in fertilizer in different degrees. The fertilizer in California mainly comes into the port of Stockton through the Panama Canal from places like Trinidad, Tobago. so it a long way to go from Trinidad through the canal to California making it really expensive into Stockton There roughly 110 metric tons imported into Stockton per year so quite a bit going through and that is dispersed throughout the state via truck. My project that I've been working on is to produce ammonia for farmers in California. We would be using geothermal power. why geothermal is because it's there's no intermittency it'd be really tough to do this with wind and solar but California luckily has the biggest geothermal resource in the world the geysers and there's still a lot more to do as far as geothermal and it's it's up and coming so the project would take geothermal power and heat from the geothermal resource that was also a byproduct and go and go through electrolysis and electrolysis all it does is essentially separate oxygen and hydrogen and then you take the hydrogen and you go through the Harbour's boss process with nitrogen and the nitrogen is both the atmosphere pretty easy to do with an air separation units and then you have ammonia that can be sent to places like Calusa Calusa has that has three has three aqua blending facilities right in Calusa and aqua all it is is adding two parts of water one part hydrogen for rice farms and that's just one application my project I have I have my partners Clamco they're the largest farming co-op in distributor of ammonia in the state they're my martyr they're my off taker problems like little companies like mine is just getting our feet off the ground you know as the federal government stepped back and helping projects like this I'm looking for states like California particularly you know I came here knowing that you guys are on the leading edge of all renewable things and I'm like alright so this is a state where you know I could use some help just getting the getting the horse out of the gate and getting this to getting traction because I have kind of everything else checked but it's tough to find private capital private capital has what I like to call green fatigue green fatigue meaning you know you know the green we've had so much I mean waiting for green we've had help and support and everyone's kind of getting tired we need someone to step in and reenergize and push these projects home because we're close we're getting closer so thank you for all you do in your time

Thank you.