Black Coloradan Racial Equity Study Commission [Aug 19, 2026]

. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Perfect. Thank you so much, Ms. Suplassus. Dr. Jones, please begin.

and write on the remaining chapters of the report spanning 1970 through to the present. Thank you for the opportunity to update you all and to do this work. Very good. Members, any questions? Commissioner Brame. Thank you all for that research update and also for just the context of that evolution over time. I think that's really important to capture. It did bring up a question for me in terms of the burial of black Coloradans and how that traditionally happened, understanding that these laws and standards were in place for some time. I'm recalling, thinking about Tulsa, Oklahoma and how they're just now uncovering the graves of the folks from the Tulsa massacre. And I'm curious if there's any context or history or understanding of how black Coloradans were buried throughout this timeline, or if that's a point of research. And also let the record reflect that Commissioner Representative Ricks has joined us. Who would like to answer that question? Dr. Jones. Sure. Thank you for that question, Commissioner Bray. There weren't any racial massacres here like we see in Tulsa, St. Louis, Detroit, Mississippi, fortunately. So no mass burials, especially along the lines that we see and they're grappling with and dealing with in Tulsa. But it is said, and I do think that that is true, that one of the most segregated places that we see not only is Sunday morning in church, but are racial lines drawn across cemetery plots. That is one of the things that we're looking at. And we do see, and I think there's a correlation between sundown towns and the sundown ordinances, they often passed with those restrictions laws that dealt with cemetery lines and cemetery plots. So we're trying to track those as best we can. It's difficult across highly localized cemeteries, but to the extent that we can find sundown laws and where they exist, we often do find those laws, especially if they're at the municipal level that deal with all city cemeteries. We're trying to locate those as well. Very good. Commissioner Bray? Yeah, because I'm like, if they were not able to be buried in some of these, you know, cemeteries that are still cemeteries today, where are they buried? I'm just curious about, like, because something that we've seen nationally is it'll be like under a parking lot where they've discovered remains as they're building new buildings and starting to develop areas. And I'm just curious if there are any instances of that where we can see that there was a segregation in terms of the cemeteries. Dr. Jones? That definitely happened in Mississippi I know of that with the massacre that I researched for my dissertation and it homes and subdivisions that were built on top of massacre victims in Mississippi I don know of that existing here in Colorado. However, your question is a good one. Most of those plots that were segregated seem to exist or separate plots that were created for African American burials seem to exist around churches or separate family plots. The danger, though, with separate family plots is they tend to be lost over time or not as well kept or documented. And that's a whole other aspect and preservation that we need to, it may be beyond our purview to the extent that we have that capability, but hopefully it's something that we can point to for other researchers to begin to look into and to document further. Very good. Dr. Romero, and then we'll go to Madam Vice Chair. Thank you for the research update. I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about kind of what you've described as the sundown laws in places like Fruita. In particular, in that western slope, if you're in the area of Grand Junction, Delta, Alathe, Montrose, kind of working your way in those areas, were there other sorts of smaller municipalities that had those sorts of restrictions? and then kind of a second part of this question is can you tell us a little bit more about the nature of the black community that is navigating these spaces was it mostly men were they families where were they living if they couldn't live in these towns were they it was a more transient and so i think that would help me sort of understand better and contextualize this this particular moment dr jones sure thank you for the question dr romero um from what we can gather they seem to be hard to find in documentation. It's a lot known by word of mouth. And some of the projects, there's a project at Tougaloo College in Jackson, Mississippi, is one of them that have tried to document all of the sundown towns across the nation. It's just one instance. But for Colorado and their efforts in Colorado and then some of the ways in which Colorado itself and history Colorado has tried to document it. It's suspected in certain places or told by word of mouth and oral histories that these were sundown towns, but difficult to sort of pin down. You'll often find where it's likely, or some of the documentation around it, or this town was said to be a sundown town or were then likely said to be a sundown town. In those instances where we have sundown towns, and black laborers or black workers usually lived outside of the municipal boundaries and then went into the town to either shop, transact to do business, and then lived outside the boundaries for which they were not allowed to go once it became dusk or nightfall. So they were transient to the extent that they were made to be transient in order to comply with those requirements. Dr. Romero. Thank you. And I guess the larger kind of thinking of the question and sort of anticipating kind of what this gets to tell us about economic opportunities home ownership or lack thereof right in each of these different spaces So that was kind of, I'm really curious what this was going to look like in the final report. So thank you. Very good. Madam Vice Chair. Thank you. I was wondering if we could turn to the higher ed questions, particularly when it comes to student and faculty. I know we talked about clashes between the police. I'm sorry. I think what I wanted to figure out is if you were able to maybe find some statistics or data around how many black students were also able to access higher ed because of the GI Bill, and also, quite frankly, which schools in the state of Colorado seemed to do well or better when it came to the enrollment of black students, and about which time period. I just have a curiosity if, you know, post-World War II era and the GI Bill may have played a role in anything, given the number of veterans who kind of moved to Colorado. So do you have, again, the question is, do you have any information about, you know, perhaps African Americans and black students who may have entered schools on the GI Bill, but then just generally what enrollment looked like across the universities and colleges in Colorado. Thank you, Madam Vice Chair. And let the record reflect that Commissioner Adams and Senator Exum have joined us online. Dr. Jones. Thank you for the question, Representative Bacon. A couple of things about that data. One is it was frustrating to try to access that data. Our volunteer who worked with us to compile that data had a very, very difficult time trying to find it and then to access it consistently over time for different schools. As you might expect, one of the things that he found is that there were higher numbers of black students in Metro Denver schools in particular. He also found that for CU Boulder, for instance, both the number or the percentage of black students at CU Boulder stayed pretty low, single digits, students and faculty across the board for a particular period of time. that it neither went up or went down, but was consistently low. I think very low single digits. I want to say 3% or 4% or less. And there didn't seem to be a bump or a dip either way. I don't believe he was able to access data specifically around the GI Bill to see the impact there. but almost like with our prison data and then access to certain records, it just became spotty to be able to look at it consistently over a particular longitudinal length of time. And a vice chair. Okay. I think I want to repeat back what I heard. the data was difficult to get, including perhaps around the time of the GI Bill. The other reason What I'm asking is because, well, I'm wondering if you found this, if universities particularly open centers to support black studies. I believe there may have been a center at UNC. Curious if there was one at other universities. And I'm wondering if you may have come across that as well. Dr. Jones. and when those centers or even fields of study may have even become a field of study in the state. I think he did look at that, and I think there were one or two classes at different universities. It just depended. I think you are correct, only one or two centers, but very school-specific, not across the board and not across Colorado and universities. And it also depended on the number of students, very school-specific. And to answer your question on data, one of the reasons, if I remember my conversation with him, the data was sporadic because for certain years, certain universities didn't keep records around race of students or didn't release those records around the ethnicity of their students or make those records available. Madam Vice Chair. And so this is a body of work that has findings that we can read. Okay. I think for what it's worth, you know, I think this is actually very interesting for this state, particularly as we talk around post-World War II to the civil rights era and the role that higher education played in those movements, and particularly for student-led movements, and also what became of the youth in those periods as they started entering universities, and many people went on to become the professors at these universities. I've known a few. When I think about UNC, UNC was a teacher's college, or a big part of UNC's history. And when we talk about the first black teachers of K-12 in Denver, they went to UNC. And so that's what I'm curious about with that history. But also where some of our universities were, given the Sundown Town history. We talk about schools in Colorado Springs, schools in Greeley, what was it like to even be able, could you even go to these campuses if they were in Jim Crow towns? And so I do think that there's intersection here between one physically or actually being able to access higher education in a time where African Americans were really pushing for that. There's a whole narrative in the black community about going to college that shifted around this time. I think we've all probably talked about the talented 10th to whatever. right and the literal placement of these universities and the treatment of black students if they even went there which I do know many people have talked about and so I be really curious to see this body of work in the findings I don mean to call any communities out but I have heard stories about students on campuses in particular Colorado towns, that have been run out and had guns pointed at them just for being in the city. Then don't even get me started on when these universities started recruiting athletes. And so I think this is a really interesting piece of history when we talk about racial equity and then all of the subtext to this. So I would really be curious to see this body of work, if it's something that could be sent to us. Dr. Jones. Yes, and it's a great question and a great point to point out that in certain towns that are college towns, There tended to be, for some, a different way in which that students of color could move on campus and could not move and be free and be able to be seen in town at night. That did exist, and we have run across accounts of that. So your point is a valid one for certain areas and certain campuses. There existed two boundary lines within those places. Let the record reflect that Commissioner Coleman, the other Coleman, has joined us online. Dr. Sampson's up. I just wanted to say I had an opportunity to go to visit Senator Janice Rich in Grand Junction, and we drove through FRUTA. And it's one of those things where my grandmother is 92 years old. My mother and father were alive before 1952, and to think that in our state this is not that long ago. I think a lot of times we see these numbers and we assume this is so long ago, it couldn't have been something anyone who is currently alive is experiencing, and there are folks who experience this in a real way, even in our own state. Dr. Sampson. Yes. I was thinking about the economic analysis that's coming up. We're not there yet on the agenda, but I'm sure you have Deerfield in this process, and Loveland and Cherry Creek and all the places we know economically that people were ran out, resources were taken. Are those in there as well? Do you name, and you have those in particular in the study? Dr. Jones. Yes, Dr. Simpson, we do. Absolutely. Very good. and Commissioner Emerson. Thank you so much for the update. I just want to go back to the cowboy and the research that you did with Charlie Glass. Of course, I'm interested in some of the cowgirls at that time. Did you do more research around the black cowgirl? And also, I was thinking about the documentary High Horse. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but it explores the journey and the history of black cowboys, but also land acquisition and the stealing of land as it relates to the contribution of black people to the American West. So if you can kind of speak a little bit about that, I'd appreciate it. Dr. Jones. Thank you, Commissioner Emerson. I am not familiar with High Horse. I know the story of Cathay Williams, of course, with the Buffalo Soldiers, but I will look more into black cowgirls. Absolutely Thank you Further questions comments Seeing none any further comments from the panel Any further updates All right I just want to say thank you all so much. Again, every single week you all give us information that we've never heard of before, or at least I've never heard of before, and I've been here my whole life. and I really appreciate that because as we all do our work in various capacities and we travel to parts of the state, we now think about those places differently. I will never visit Estes Park the same way again. I will never visit Fruita the same way again because I'm thinking about the historical context and we wouldn't have that without you all. So thank you so much. All right, next up, we have discussions on requests for qualifications. I'd like to call up Dawn DePrince, History Colorado, Natalie Castle, Legislative Council Staff, and Matthew Becker, Legislative Council Staff. Thank you all for joining us. And I made one mistake, but we'll do that afterwards. I wanted to make sure that Commissioner Brame, as I mentioned in the beginning, the beginning wanted to have a brief conversation about archive and so I want to make sure that we do get to that. But we will have time for that. And who would like to begin? I cannot see my little light. You might be on. Okay. We can hear you. Mr. Prince. I am loud so that is not a surprise. Yes. Thank you, Senator Coleman. So I want to introduce as we move into setting up the RFQ for the next part of this very important initiative. As I think you all know, maybe you're not as familiar with the legislation as we are, because I've been studying this. It feels like I pull it out probably once a week. But as is stated in the preamble of the Senate bill that enabled our work today, the General Assembly declares that an independent study must be conducted and a steering committee be created in the state historical society to determine the extent to which black Coloradans have experienced and continue to experience racial discrimination directly linked to harmful practices, systems, and policies of the state and to quantify the economic impacts of any discrimination discovered during the study. This paragraph provides a great roadmap for the work we're all doing, an independent study, a steering committee, you all, and the study must examine practices, systems, and policies that have been harmful to black Coloradans from the past into the present, which is what you just heard from Dr. Jones and Chloe DePlisis. But this next part is to quantify the economic impacts of these harms. and ultimately not in this text but down in the bill the study must also include historic recommendations in addition to that research in addition to the economic analysis recommendations that you all make just like I'm like mapping out the path that all of this includes and then of course to accomplish all of this there are dates that are very important because these are not just guidelines These are requirements that we got to hit March 2027 for the historic research and September 2027 for the economic analysis So even though you can hear we are still working on the historic research, We think it is very important that we begin this RFQ process to get the economic analysis part rolling. And, you know, some people have asked why History Colorado is not doing the economic analysis part of the study. So I thought it would be important to address that to the commission, as I have, you know, in a number of community conversations. But there are two important reasons. You know, first of all, history is our expertise. I feel very confident in our ability to oversee a historic study. We can guarantee the quality, the ethos, the scholarship, the approach. We do not have that same confidence and expertise to oversee an economic analysis. There is economic history that you'll see in this report, but that is different than something that is entirely centered on math, statistics. Like I always say, we do humanities. We are humanities people. We are not necessarily mathematicians. And I think it's good to just be self-aware of where your talents lie. and I think it's also this is very very important work so we did not want to risk the quality of it by saying we could do something we did not have the confidence to do secondly I think it is ethically important for these two studies to be independent of each other for the historic research to be done without predetermined conclusions of what those economic determinations would be. Again, I think this adds to just the quality, the steadfastness of what this study will mean if we do it where one is done and then the other is done and there is a line between the two. So for those two reasons, we did not feel like it was proper and right for us to take this on. But all of that being said, History of Colorado feels cooked and baked into this project. We care about it deeply. We feel like we've been caring for it since before it was signed into law. And we will continue to care for it and carry whatever is required of us so that we can collectively be successful in accomplishing the goals of this legislation. While our scholar team has been working at an astonishing pace, there's still quite a bit of work to do. As I think you all know, anybody who's worked on a very big project, the end parts are the hardest parts to get done. You always feel like you're close, and then you're like, oh, but wait, there's so much more to do. But a number of us, including me, are devoting time to ensuring that everybody and everybody Everything has exactly what it takes to complete this and get it successfully over the finish line. This includes collaborating with my colleagues here at the Capitol. You'll hear from them and a few from the legislative council staff on the best approach for getting proposals so that you all can get the right proposals for an RFQ for what that economic analysis should be and what it will look like. At our September meeting, we're having this kind of in-between meeting so we can make sure this RFQ process is on target because these dates will start becoming more and more important. so we're going to have another meeting next month and in September at that September meeting in addition to the kinds of things we usually will be sharing with you we will have a more detailed financial sharing of where we sit with the fundraising and all of that but I will tell you that we still need to raise funds for the economic analysis part of this endeavor. And I think this is something, again, in the collective way in which we've all been doing this work, this is something that we need to collectively address to figure out how we're going to accomplish this. You know, we don't exactly know what the economic analysis is going to cost. The legislation included a conservatively high guesstimate of costs, because that's what you do. But once we get the RFQs and select a vendor, we will have, you know, a better knowledge of what this will cost us. But in the tricky tap dance of fundraising, we still need to be fundraising while we are working on that RFQ process. So that I just wanted to give sort of a lay of the land. We just like historic research is going to be happening. RFQ for economic analysis will be happening simultaneously. There have been several people who have said like, oh, I think this is your last time at the meeting. but No History Colorado is just going to keep showing up. And we will be here until the very, very end. So this will not be the last time we will be here. We will continue to be here. And we are very honored to be a part of this project and to be here with all of you. With that, I want to turn it over to Natalie and Matt who are going to talk through the RFQ process. I think you all received this in your email yesterday. Very good. Director Castle and Mr. Becker, thank you both for joining us. I just got a text from Director Castle. She hit the lottery and says she's been a generous contributor to donate the rest of the funds to this. I'm just joking. Please, please don't leave. We appreciate you. Director Castle. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Wouldn't that be lovely if that were true? Yes. Yeah. Let me introduce myself to you I Natalie Castle I the director of legislative council Staff That the nonpartisan staff agency for the legislature that has all of the red badges here So you've seen them, I know, at previous meetings. I just want to thank Director DePrince and all of the team at History Colorado for the amazing work that you have been doing and I know will continue to do, and for the collaboration that we've had together. You guys are incredible, and I'm talking about you and the team that's here today and also the team that is at History Colorado, including your financial team, for the work that they've done. And commission members, I also want to thank you for your leadership and for your service on this commission and would like to tell you that legislative council staff has a lot of expertise in supporting the work of legislative committees and legislative commissions, and we are committed to supporting the work of this commission. We also have a lot of expertise in our office on economic analysis and managing contracts with vendors on studies of economic analyses. There are economic analyses that we do, contracts that we have every year on economic analyses related to property taxes and things like a cost of living index around the state of Colorado. We have a team of economists. One of them is assigned to this commission as part of the support team. She's sitting here in the room today. Dr. Elizabeth Ramey, sitting here to my left, is an economist and a demographer and would be involved in this process. So what we have here for you today, I've got one of our principal research and committee analysts and one of the managers in our research and committee section, Mr. Matt Becker, is here today. And he's going to present a proposed RFQ to you for looking for people who might be interested in working on the economic analysis and also investigating how much that might cost. So with your permission, Mr. Chair, I would hand it over to Mr. Becker. Mr. Becker. Thank you, Mr. President and members of the Commission. As Natalie stated, I believe Ms. Juara emailed a draft of this to you all last night, and you should have hard copies in front of you as well. So I'll walk through some of the administrative details of this draft RFQ, and we're happy to take feedback today or any time between now and your next meeting. As Don stated, there's quite a few deadlines coming up, So we have responses tentatively due at the end of October, which would give this about a month to be out on the street for prospective vendors to look at. But again, we're happy to take any feedback you have today up until your next meeting in late September. You'll see, as required by the legislation, any contract that is a result of this RFQ is contingent on gifts, grants, and donations. that's required by the legislation, and then to meet those deadlines that Don was discussing, you all would need to decide by early January before the next legislative session on whether or not to go forward with any of the responses at that time. So if you turn to the top of page two of the draft RFQ, this just restates the purpose and goals of the commission as outlined in Senate Bill 24-053. talks about the dates in which you are authorized to meet. This commission is actually authorized for a period of four years However with all of the deadlines coming up that will come quickly And then at the bottom of page two there a summary of the historical research that is currently ongoing by History Colorado And then at the top of page three, we move into the requirements of the economic analysis that is required by the legislation. one thing that the commission may need to also decide on is whether or not you want to wrap the final report that is due also into the scope of work with this third party entity the legislation restricts legislative council staff from being able to write that report so we have included that in this draft for now but if the commission decided it wanted to go a different route on the final report we could take that piece out and focus just on the economic analysis. I think that is up for you all to decide. And then we get into the nitty-gritty details of the scope of work, which includes preparing an economic analysis, which must include a financial impact of the systemic racism on historically impacted black Coloradans. That language is straight out of the initial enacting legislation. we also have included that this third party would need to attend up to six commission meetings in calendar year 2027 that is the maximum number of meetings you are allowed to meet in the calendar year so we thought it would be helpful for them to attend most of those and then again this third piece which is really up to you of whether or not you include in the scope of work to draft and finalize the commission's final report which would include any recommendations that you all would make after the economic analysis is complete. Next are required qualifications. Again, these are outlined in the original bill, which must include three things, experience working with black communities, an understanding of black history and culture, and an understanding of the impact of trauma and how it passes through generations. The legislation also states that any third party that you may choose to hire can come from outside of Colorado as well. And then we have added some preferred qualifications that we've used in past RFQs that our office has issued that we have found to be helpful. But again, we are open to feedback and suggestions for any changes you would like to see in this RFQ. The remainder of the RFQ is sort of our standard legal language requirements that go into most of our RFQs and RFPs includes things, you know, about contract awards and insurance requirements and things like that. So I won't go into the three pages of legalese, but I'm happy to answer any questions at this time. Questions? Dr. Sampson. So I wish I could just walk into a car dealership and say, just give me that car and I will pay you later. and in some ways we're asking that of people to apply for this RFP. And so I'm curious about, I'm very concerned about the money. Where is this money going to come from? And people do all the work to get ready for RFP, which is extensive. I've done many of them. And then we don't know if we have the funds. And I'm wondering about that time frame, whether or not that's really appropriate. I know it's in our, it's something that we have to do, But are we able to look at that Because if you got it out next month they have one month to turn around something that so significant and not sure they will get paid You might get paid You might not get paid Thank you for your information And so I'm concerned about the time frame and the money. Comments? Mr. Prince. Yes, thank you for the question. I mean, we are concerned as well. I don't know how to meet the deadlines that the legislation requires of us. I don't know how we can overcome the fact that we need to collectively raise these funds. If you remember, this is not a bill that came with state funding. So these are just the realities of the way the legislation is structured. And so I think, you know, these are the parameters in which we need to move forward. And next up, I had Dr. Romero and then Commissioner Bram. Yeah, Commissioner Bray. So I do want to point out that the community groups that have been raising the dollars and that History Colorado has also been supportive in raising some dollars have to date raised over a million dollars for this study. And we anticipate, you know, the pieces related to or the cost of the study was estimated at about $1.8 million. dollars. And so we anticipate when we look at the numbers, right, that there's probably about half a million dollars that still need to be raised probably to complete the historical portions of the study and also the economic analysis. Although, you know, the call for proposals when I look at this document, there's not anything that says how much we're going to pay for the economic analysis is requesting a proposal, which, you know, the proposal can range from, you know, any amount. And so I think it would probably be helpful to put an amount that we anticipate being able to raise. When I look at the language in here, it also says that the award is subject to availability of funds because of the gifts, grants, and donations. And so I think that's the piece that's missing is a range of what we're actually looking to pay for it, which I feel like we should be able to estimate the range that we have budgeted from the legislation and include that here. Because I don't see us paying a million dollars for an economic analysis. I think we can be very clear about that here. But I also was very interested to learn that the LCS has economists on staff and that we actually have an economist that's assigned to this commission. That would have been great to know probably a year ago as the research team was engaging in the research. And, you know, you all spoke to collaboration. And I'm curious on how you are now collaborating to look at what has been produced by the study that's in draft as you're building this RFP, you leveraging the expertise of the economists that we have at the state to say, here's some framework that we can envision with the expertise that you all have in doing this type of work and how we're positioned even going into this process. Mr. Prince. Yeah, I can speak to some of that. So there are lots of things. I think, I don't think half a million is exactly the number we need to continue to raise. I think it's probably, again, depending on what we estimate the cost of the study. The fiscal note estimated the cost of the study being $300,000. We think that that is probably on the very high end. But if we were to say that maybe it's $200,000, then I think we have maybe $30,000 left to complete the fundraising for the historic research. So really that's about $230,000. and so that again we'll offer more detailed report at September but if I were just to do some back of the napkin math so that's one piece of this I think on the RFQ we were really debating about putting in a number because I will tell you as somebody who's done these you put in a number and that you get, like, every proposal you get, they figure out how to get to that number. So we thought choosing an RFQ versus an RFP was a path forward because it focused, number one, on qualifications. That was, like, centered qualifications. And then it left that price piece more open-ended because we think we didn't want to put in the fiscal note amount because we thought it was too high. If we put in $300,000, I think we'll get proposals where they figure out how to get to $300,000. I think it could be, in the meantime, we could look at economic analyses that this team does to see what those cost them. We could look at other entities that do similar studies to see what it costs them, see if we could kind of start to come up with a figure. But I will say whatever figure, even if we put a range, the proposals we get will be for that top range. and then that's what we figure we got to budget for. Commissioner Bright. I appreciate that approach and that clarification in the approach and don't necessarily disagree with that and very appreciative of that. I also appreciate the back of the napkin math just in terms of where we've been thinking. And I know the community group who's in the room today that has been leading our fundraising efforts and the pushing from the gifts, grants, and donations perspective. We'll be loving that back of the napkin math as well. But I think as we get those pieces solidified, I think the group is prepared to be able to support in some very intentional ways and getting creative. I actually am not concerned about the money not being there. I know this community, and I have faith that this community will come through Very good I have Dr Romero and then I also have online Commissioner Adams Dr Romero Yeah thank you I want to talk a little bit about the RFP and the required and preferred qualifications I don't know what sort of flexibility you have outside of or to add to the required qualifications, but certainly something I'd like to see in the preferred qualifications is to build on something that we saw with History Colorado as they have done their reports to us, they've identified a lot of really important qualitative type of research or qualitative type of research with a lot of stories. I understand there are some data sets, right, quantitative data sets, too, that their research is uncovered. So towards that end, I think I'd like to see someone, right, or whatever this third-party entity is familiar with and has experience integrating quantitative and qualitative research, right, It's sort of a very mixed methods approach. And towards that end, and even more precisely, there's a whole body of expertise around what's called critical quantitative research that I think would be particularly important because that is the type of researchers, the type of expertise that has worked, at least in the academic spaces, with historically underrepresented and racialized communities like the black community. So integrating mixed methods, quantitative and qualitative research, and also critical quantitative theory would be things that I would like to see in the preferred qualifications. Mr. Becker. Thank you, Mr. President. Yeah, Dr. Romero, I think that's certainly something we can work on, and I could work with you on language offline to make sure that gets incorporated at least into the preferred qualifications before we release the final RFQ. Very good. Commissioner Adams, and then we have Dr. Sampson. Thank you, sir. I appreciate the clarification regarding the amount that it would cost to get this economic analysis done. It's the first time I heard about the fiscal note because I was somewhat confused what amount we were looking at. One of the things I saw in the required duties in the draft, it indicates if feasible, the economic analysis must also provide an estimation of the financial impact on Colorado's economy resulting from state governmental entities, policies, systems, and practices in Colorado. So that little phrase, if feasible, what's going to determine what's feasible or not? Because I think it's important. You know, we're going to point out what it costs to be a black person in Colorado. I think we ought to point out what it costs Colorado to be racist to blacks in Colorado. Mr. Becker. Mr. Becker. Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you for the question. That language is pulled directly from the initial legislation, and I believe there's no definition of what feasible means. I may defer to Director Castle here on how we would go about, you know, in terms that maybe we could ask, you know, as part of the response, what does that mean and how would we go about determining that? Director Castle. Thank you Mr Chair Commissioner is it Commissioner Oh Adams Adams Commissioner Adams I think that whether or not that feasible would be something that we would rely on the third vendor the consultant, to tell us whether or not they think that is feasible. I imagine that the reason that was included in the language in the bill is because at the time, we had a lot less information about what kind of data are available for this kind of analysis. And sometimes when we're asked to do an economic analysis, it needs to be more qualitative than quantitative because the data are just not available to do that. And so some of the research, it sounds like, that History of Colorado has done would be helpful towards this end. But I'm sorry I don't have a really complete answer for you. I think the answer would be informed by what the consultant would tell us. Commissioner Adams, any follow-up? No, I'm concerned. I really do think, and I understand that the data might not be available, but I think you'll probably be able to create some kind of models to determine, you know, what the impact of the racist policies of Colorado have been that has caused a loss to the Colorado economy. I mean, if you talk about, you know, is there a Colorado gross domestic product that you can look out? Keeping, you know, blacks out of the workforce or keeping them out of certain opportunities in terms of employment, in terms of the loss of black human capital. There's got to be a way to just get some kind of ballpoint figure. Because my concern is essentially, you know, somebody is going to look at it and say, oh, yeah, you know, like this is what it costs black people and not even think about the impact. There's a cost to racism that works both ways. And it's a hit, you know, in terms of if you want to engage in these kinds of practices, this discriminatory and racist practices, it's a cost to you, too. So send your your your to your advantage, you know, and to your benefit to stop it, cut it out and start working collectively so we can make, you know, folks part of the whole, I guess, you know, the the universal humanity of Colorado in terms of a community. I hope I'm making sense. I'm kind of rambling. No, you're making sense. I have a response from Mr. Prince. Yes, thank you for such a great question. I mean, I think this is really up to the commission in how you want to write the RFQ, that you can be very explicit that you want this economic analysis to do both. You would like for it to measure the economic impact to black Coloradans and the economic impact to the Colorado economy. You could do the economic impact to Black Coloradans and or the impact to Colorado economy. But I think this is really, you know, I think as a starting point, they leaned on the language from legislation. But this is your RFQ to author. and I think the choice is yours. Very good. Dr. Sampson and I also have Commissioner Bray. I think that I could see each one of these bullets having their own bullets And so the tone that I reading is more deficit And I would really like to add some pieces in that so I always happy to put my two cents in But I was thinking about just take the bullet and understanding of the impact of trauma. So when we talk about trauma, it's externalized and internalized. And so what are we doing to make sure it speaks to Commissioner Adams and what he was talking about in terms of there's an intersectional space for each thing. So we really would like to add something like that. But my question is, how can we, I don't know if we can add, just working with black communities, but proven work in black communities, anchored research in equity, cultural humility, and not only mixed method research, but qualitative respect and a collaborative spirit in which they'll do the work. And so I'm concerned about those kind of parameters and so would be happy to add some qualifications like that. My last question is Dr. Duran did some economic analysis. Is that attached to this at all? Is there some information about that that you have about Dr. Duran's work doing the economic analysis? Mr. Prince? Yes, it does sound like the scholar team is familiar with that. It is not necessarily part of this RFQ, but that is something that would be easily shared with the team that would be hired to do this piece of it. Dr. Sampson? That would be great to do. And the last thing I had was, can the party subcontract? Is there anything in the writing about that? Mr. Becker? Thank you, Mr. President and Dr. Sampson. Yes, the bill does contemplate the ability to have subcontractors, and we have required that in their responses. If they plan to use a subcontractor, they need to outline that in their response as well. No, that's fine. Dr. Sampson. One more qualification. How close can we talk about in terms of black employees being engaged in the process, percentage-wise? Director Castle. Thank you, Mr. Chair and Commissioner Sampson. I believe that would be a legal question, and I'm not an attorney. I don't think I'm qualified to answer that, but I can speak with the Office of Legislative Legal Services and get back to you unless someone on the commission has some expertise in that area. Madam Vice Chair. I'm sorry. I was wondering if you could repeat your question. Dr. Sampson. Dr. Yeah, we can get that answer for you, Dr. Sampson. Director Castle, you had your hand up, and I forgot to call on you before we moved on to this question. Was there any follow-up from a prior question you need to respond to, or are you good? Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just wanted to follow up on the that Director DePrince gave about the idea of, I think it was Commissioner Adams' question about the economic analysis. Mr. Becker had an idea for including an additional requirement for the response for a feasibility plan for that particular item. So that is something you could add to the RFQ to ask the consultant to be included in the proposals. Very good. Thank you for that. on the list I have Commissioner Brame and then Commissioner Cooper, Commissioner Brame. Yeah, I think part of the thing that is missing, but I'm so glad that Judge Adams spoke to it, the way he's describing it is the way that the original group that proposed this legislation intended, the economic analysis to be completed, because the intention is to be able to understand the historical harms, quantify them, and propose repair. And so that's the cycle. The recommendations should be able to take from the outcomes of these economic studies and these historical studies and be able to say to the Colorado State Legislature, to the governor, to the state, here are some ways that we recommend repairing this harm. Very good. And then Commissioner Coop. Yes, Director Natalie Casill. You had alluded earlier that your office comes with a great amount of expertise and that you all have done many economic analysis or worked with partners of such. can you at least shed light of what we can expect of a cost of something of this magnitude? And then this is for History of Colorado or yourself. Have you looked at other economic analyses across the country that have a race-based lens? And if so, what have you learned? And what can you share with us around what we should be thinking of since you have done things as such? Director Castle. Thank you so much. Mr. Chair and Commissioner Cooper, I appreciate the question. The expertise that we have in managing economic analyses or contracts of economic analyses has never included any kind of race-based analysis. We primarily work on contracts for tax analyses, those kinds of things. So I don't really have any additional information to give you outside of what Director DePrinso has already said, And I agree with everything that she said about that particular, about the cost and the potential for the cost of the study. And also her recommendation that we issue an RFQ to kind of determine how much that could cost. Very good. Further questions? Yeah, Don, can you elaborate on other race-based economic analysis or what you all have learned or suggesting or studied that is pertinent to what we're doing today? Mr. Prince. Yes you know the pieces we have looked at like the state of California we looked at you know what other states have done And, you know, the state of California has spent quite a bit more money. They just have very different structure than we do. You know, it's funded from their general fund. and eight staff members at least two to three times the cost that we are spending on this and has not included necessarily that deep historic research. So it's been hard to find the same parallel. You know, I had a good conversation actually with the Women's Foundation for Colorado this morning, remembering that they do great economic analysis work that is gender focused, thinking that at least there might be some parallel. and she's going to be following up with me to send me some of that, see if we can learn anything from their approach that might be a good parallel to what we're trying to accomplish here. She did mention that they often work with, let me try to get the acronym right, CCLP, Colorado, now I can't remember, but Law and Policy, which I think they're on Sherman. I don't know. I just looked them up, but I don't know if anybody has worked with. I'm just giving you little breadcrumbs of clues. It's hard for anyone to say they've worked with somebody that I've not even given you their full name. But the acronym is CCLP. Does that ring a bell for anyone? But that is what Renee said that they work with at Women's Foundation for Colorado for their economic reports. She's going to be connecting me with some of the people they work with. And so we can be building out maybe what at least looking at, again, this is different because this would be gender. but that might give us some leads that would be helpful. So we're trying to figure it out. Like I said, I do not think the number we put in the fiscal note is correct. And for those that don't study the General Assembly's website all the time like I do, if you are curious about the fiscal note, because I think it is interesting, you can go to, you can just search for this bill online, look up Colorado SB 24-053, and when the bill comes up, you can find a link to the fiscal note text, and it will break down what the estimates were, what we thought the costs might be when the bill was moving through the process. Very good, Director Prince. And Carl Center on Law and Policy, CCLP. Further I got you Director Castle Thank you so much Mr Chair I do have a hard copy of the fiscal note here with me that I can bring up to Commissioner Coupiter or you can pass along. I will tell you that the cost of the study is just a very small part of the fiscal note. And really what the fiscal note is saying is this is what we think the cost of the commission would be. an estimate. It's not used to put together appropriation because of the way this commission is funded, but I can hand it to you. And I have seen so far, based on the financials, that the costs have been very similar to what was estimated in this fiscal note for the cost of the work that History of Colorado is doing. They've been very faithful to the information they gave the legislature then. I would say that Legislative Council staff has put together RFPs and RFQs for people to come and facilitate the work of commissions like yourself in the past. We've done that several times. It's my experience that if we put a dollar amount in an appropriation or in an RFP that Directorate of Prince is correct, we'll get back responses for that dollar amount almost not 100% of the time, but a good amount of the time. in my experience the most successful responses that we've gotten have come from networking from the people on the commission or the committee or involved perhaps the community groups that has been the most successful generator of proposals that were really exactly what the the commission wanted for that. And so I would ask that you all be involved in that. And I think that if you were, you would get the best response from this. And you can have those kinds of conversations offline in that process. Further discussion? I don't think there's any further discussion for this panel, but as I alluded to earlier, I did not call on Commissioner Brame for another area that he wanted to discuss. And so, Commissioner Brame, if you wouldn't mind, and then if we have anyone in the room that needs to respond, we'll have them do that. Commissioner Brame. Absolutely. Thank you all for that overview, and I think we have a lot to figure out. I did want to bring back, if you all remember, in the last commission meeting, I asked specifically specifically about how state archives were being leveraged to inform the development of the study and just the overall research. And I will say that we did have a follow-up meeting with the state archivist and their team, and were able to learn. I learned so much about just kind of the state of our state archives, which was fascinating to me. my concern was that there were just a whole bunch of records sitting in a warehouse somewhere that we didn't really have access to and of course it's more complicated than that but we learned that several pieces of the archive have been digitized but they do not necessarily have the resources to digitize the complete archive There are probably millions of pieces that are not necessarily fully accessible without going through the process to do the research to find the numbers and how they're all outlined. We did learn that our lead researcher has been able to leverage some of the archives to inform the study. But there are some barriers there. There is some what I call bureaucracy that has impacted how those archives are accessed, how they're used, the timing, and the resources the state has available to staff the various locations and things like that. And so I do think there was some positive outcomes that came from that discussion about ways that History Colorado and the state archives will be working together to ensure the research team has what they need and the ways that they need it. But I did want to note that to the commission because I think that this is just a point of development for our state overall. And just in terms of advocacy, there are things that are there that could be helpful that we may never know until the state moves forward and is able to secure the resources to actually be able to make those things accessible and searchable, not just by some 2, 4, 5, 6, 7 number that's associated with some year, as opposed to topic when we think about forward-thinking technology or future technology. And so I thought that that was important to come back to this group. I also just wanted to say to our team at History Colorado that I'm personally committed to making sure you all get the things that you need to carry out this work. And so if there are ways that we can advocate for you, I think it's important that we bring them back up. I also shared with the state archivist and the team there that if there are ways that we need to go, you know, to the legislature or if we need to go to the governor's office to have conversations about just the accessibility of the archives overall, I think that's important that we move those conversations forward as well. Very good. And I also wanted to say thank you, Commissioner Brain, for leading on that. Thank you, Seth Ford, who's in the room at DPA, and the work that you all do in helping us with the commission. Further comments or questions? That is what we have on the agenda for our commission meeting from our committee. All right. Seeing none, just want to make sure I make an announcement. Our next meeting is on September 30th. We'll be here back in the Colorado Supreme Court more than likely, old Supreme Court, not Colorado Supreme Court, old Supreme Court. We're not going across the street. And we'll make sure we send those details out for folks to be able to engage. And seeing no further announcements or discussion, the Joint Committee of Black Colorado Racial Equity Study Commission, oop, all good, is adjourned. Thank you.