PA House Human Services — 2026-04-13

I'd like to call this informational meeting of the House of Human Services Committee to order, and I want to thank you for your presence. Thank you for attending today. Let me begin by asking the members if they would please simply introduce themselves, and we can start from my right, make our way around with the introductions.

Thank you for being here. Representative Flick, parts of Lycoming County, parts of Union County. Thank you.

Representative Jessica Benham from Allegheny County, the 36th District. Chimper Copiak, 140th District, Bucks County.

Yeah, I'm State Representative Steve Harris.

Thank you, Chairman, and good morning. From my fellow members of the House Human Service Committee, I would like to thank the testifiers for being here today and for participating in this important discussion pertaining to SNAP benefits and H.R. 1. This is important and timely conversation, and I'm looking forward to learning more about the latest technological advancements and procedural updates that have been implemented to address the changes to the SNAP program. It essential that we clearly emphasize to individuals the need to demonstrate compliance with these new requirements and I interested in hearing more about the verification process and other process changes that DHS intends to incorporate incorporate Thank you for being here today and I look forward to your testimony Chairman Neffley thank you

Thank you, sir.

Hi, I'm Shelby Ladd. I represent the 143rd Legislative District in Bucks County.

All right, thank you so much. The work requirements required under the federal H.R. 1 have been in place since September 1, 2025. With over six months of implementation as the Human Services Committee, I thought it was more than appropriate that we convene a meeting to hear the impact of these changes. And so today we will hear from those on the front lines, including administrators responsible for implementing the requirements and organizations helping individuals access supplemental food as well as employment opportunities. We have a number of panelists today, but first, our first panel begins with Dr. Valerie Acouch, Secretary of the Department of Human Services, and I'm going to ask Dr. Acouch if you would make your way to the table. Turn on your microphone and you may begin when you are ready.

Good morning.

Dr. Alcoos, thank you so much. I want to just note that we've been joined by Representative Bellman and Representative Kahn. I think we have a question from Representative Venkat.

Yeah, that's a great question. I think what's really important to know is that in states that have tried to impose work requirements in prior years, it's not that people aren't working necessarily. It's that they get caught up in actually reporting that they're actually doing that work. So it's something we've been very mindful of. So when it comes to SNAP, I think the most important thing for us right now is making sure that we have adequate complement in our county assistance offices, because very soon in January, and you alluded to this, we're now going to see for the first time ever community engagement requirements in our Medicaid program. And so we've estimated that we need about 250 more workers in our county assistance offices, and we are working very hard to fill all vacancies in those offices. We're also working very hard to put these technological solutions into place, like I described with the income verification. When it comes to medical frailty, actually in SNAP there is not a medical frailty. That term is not considered an exemption in SNAP. It is in Medicaid. And we are working right now with CMS on our ideas as a commonwealth about how medical frailty could be defined. Under HR1, CMS is supposed to tell the states by June how they're going to define medical frailty. And so we are engaging those conversations through every channel that we can to engage. So we're kind of in a holding place right now. So there's not really anything we can do here yet, because if the federal government decides how they want to define medical frailty, we're not going to have a lot of flexibility there. But if they do give states flexibility, then that would certainly be an

Yeah, that's right. Not only do we have the need for filling all of these spots in our CAOs, but in total, we're estimating about $20 million of IT changes between the SNAP changes and then all the things that will come for Medicaid. We've been building them together, so all of these things that we're building for SNAP will be there for Medicaid individuals who need to meet work requirements, but it's significant, and it means updating websites, mobile apps, the back end in our IT systems, making sure all these systems can talk to one another so we're making it as simple as we can for the recipients. So it's been an incredible undertaking. My team has just been in a sprint since July the 4th.

Thank you. We have a series of members who want to ask questions, So I'm going to ask if the next question can be offered by Representative Slegal, who will be followed by Representative Kincaid and Representative Kahn.

So we work very closely with the Office of State Inspector General, and we refer over to OSIG anything that looks suspicious to our staff. In fact, about 85% of the cases that OSIG investigates and then ultimately prosecutes comes from referrals from our team. So this is something that we take extremely seriously. As you know, we currently, as do almost every other state in the union, use EBT cards that have a magnetic stripe on the back. And those stripes are subject to being swiped or being skimmed by these skimmers that can be attached to the point-of-sale terminals. And as we've talked about several times in other committee hearings, we would like to move toward a chip-enabled, tap-enabled card, very much like probably most of us have from our banks, that do not need to actually be swiped. And those cards confer a lot more safety to individuals. There's a lot of technology issues that are still being worked out at the federal level to make sure that those cards work appropriately. I just read literally yesterday that the third state in the country to start to move toward that is starting to move ahead slowly and carefully. We hope to move ahead when the technology's been a little more tested out. It will cost some funds, but it will go a long way to securing that that EBT card is being used by the person for whom it is intended to be used by. What we have put in place in the meantime is that through our PADHS SNAP application, our mobile app, people can lock and unlock their cards in just a few seconds. So we are advising folks to only unlock their card when they're literally standing at a point-of-sale terminal ready to make a purchase, and then as soon as they've made their purchase to lock their card again. That prevents anybody from moving those benefits out of their account.

Thank you. Representative Kincaid.

on DHS workers? Yeah, that's a great question. So I want to just separate for folks errors around eligibility determinations, and then payment error rates, which is the that we're being measured on. Error rates are administrative errors. They're a missing signature on a piece of paperwork. It is overpaying somebody by a few dollars a week or underpaying somebody by a few dollars a week because we didn't have the most recent paycheck stub data. So it's things like that. I think it is fair to say that as the total volume of work increases because we are now having to check these work requirements And then when January 1st comes, we'll have work requirements in Medicaid for the expansion population. And for the expansion population, which is 760,000 people, they're going to have to redetermine eligibility twice a year now. It's kind of like filing your taxes every six months, if you want to sort of imagine what that would be like for a person. And so that is the kind of work that we're going to be up against, which is why I answered Rep. Venkat's question is what do we need most? We need lots more folks staffed into our offices so that we can make sure that we can provide the kind of customer service that we want to provide to Pennsylvanians while meeting all of these new requirements.

Yeah. So typically, young children will not be impacted directly by these changes. And so if those children have been determined eligible, even if there is an adult in the household that now must meet work requirements and let's say is not and loses their eligibility, it should not impact that child. It is extremely important for exactly what you talked about. Just by virtue of being in SNAP, they're automatically qualified for free or reduced lunch. As in our state, of course, everybody is getting breakfast now, but similar programs in other states. And very importantly here in the Commonwealth for SunBucks, which is the summer program that provides families additional funds to help get through those summer months when there's no food at school. So, you know, it should be of a minimal impact to the children in impacted households. It is something, though, that we're very mindful of and want to do everything that we can to minimize any sort of secondary fallout on households in particular.

Correct.

Thank you. I'm going to just alter the order just a bit. So before Representative Kahn, we've got a question from Representative Reichert. Please.

That's kind of an older form, and I am not certain if it's possible to upload that one through the mobile app. I mean, it is literally a paper form that has to be filled out at this point, so we're working on getting that online. I can follow up with you if that actual form can be uploaded or not. I'm not certain about that. I was just looking at the form this morning. It clearly says mail attacks. Yeah, I think that it cannot be, but it is something that is on the run. This IT thing I mentioned to you, we have all these IT changes we need to make. That is one of them.

It could look a couple different ways. That would be one way to do it. I mean, I think right now we definitely have the ability to take pictures of pay stubs and things like that and upload it. What I can't – I just don't have that level of detail about what would happen next. But we can absolutely follow up with you on that. But in the perfect world, what would happen is there would be an online form that would just be filled out, and then that would just integrate into the individual's case record. That's where we're heading.

We could do a whole hearing on how long it takes to update these kind of legacy systems across the Commonwealth. These systems are extremely complex when you think about the fact that we have 3 million Medicaid beneficiaries, almost 2 million SNAP recipients, and a whole host of other programs. And all of these things have to talk to one another perfectly. and if you change one, you have to go through and make sure it doesn't negatively impact any of the other interactions with these other systems. So every change we make literally takes months because of the new code and then the testing of the code, and then we often will only launch it live in a part of the state to make sure it's working as intended because if they don't work, it's pretty catastrophic.

Yeah, all these things are on IT runways that have been in process for years. So they're methodically being updated. So the cost associated, this isn't necessarily specifically for the work requirements.

It's updating the system overall and modernizing that. That would be a –

The $20 million figure is all because of HR1. It's all new things that weren't contemplated. Like, there was no contemplation of Medicaid having work requirements. It's never been in the program. There was no contemplation of folks in Medicaid having to redetermine eligibility every six months. And the rules changed for the community engagement requirements in SNAP from what they'd been for years. That traditional ABOD population, those rules had been stable for years. So all of that work has to be changed.

That's – So I give you some examples of things that we have done just in the last few months So for instance many of you are probably familiar that when you deposit a check at your bank it will tell you and you use your phone mobile deposit it will tell you if it's a good picture or not that you took. We did not have that feature previously. That was something that we were able to implement just in the last few months, and so that has dramatically improved the quality of images that county assistance office workers see and reduce the errors made from people trying to read blurry images. So some things like that we've been able to do pretty quickly, but some of these more complicated things where you have to determine if someone is meeting certain eligibility requirements, those can interface across multiple systems depending upon what it is. So those are the ones that take quite a bit longer.

So let me just give you one little insight, and this is true across many agencies. Part of the Pennsylvania Department of Human Services IT systems still run on a mainframe. And that is not unusual. There has been historic lack of investment in the IT systems across the state. Governor Shapiro has brought in teams of people who have focused on this very thing to make sure that our IT systems can meet these moments. and we are going to be, hopefully by the end of 2026, we will have completed an effort to get everything off of the mainframes at DHS into a cloud that has been almost 20 years in the making.

So that's how long it takes for some of these core systems to move because they can't stop.

Right.

and that's part of why it takes us a while to move some of these things because we have to write code for both until we get it fully moved over. So it is a multi-decade, it's long before this administration. It's something that Governor Shapiro has taken head on, which I'm grateful for, but it is a long, extensive process.

Madam Secretary, if you hold on, Representative Reinkert, if you hold on, we've got several other comments and questions to be had today, So I'm going to ask you to truncate your questions for the remainder of the committee. And secondly, if there are questions that are unanswered today, feel free to provide them to our executive director. We'll make sure that they get to the secretary. I'd like to keep moving at this point.

Representative Kahn, the microphone is yours. I'm going to ask you to move towards the microphone.

Well, what I can tell you is our most recent data, which is as of about the end of January, is that since September 1st, when all of the waivers in Pennsylvania expired, about 59,000 people have been dropped from the SNAP program for now. And, you know, unfortunately, what we have not seen is any change in unemployment rates or uptick in employment necessarily in those areas where that occurred So that where we at 59 And looking at the list of exemptions is this did I read this right So veterans are no longer

That's correct. Historically in the SNAP program, if you are a veteran simply from having served, you were exempt from any sort of work requirement. But now only a veteran with another exemption like a disability or a medical condition, then they could be exempt on that basis. But just having had served is no longer an exemption. It seems exceptionally cruel since

correct? So it's 20 hours a week or 80 hours a month. So we do look at the totality for exactly your reason, but to your point, people with hourly jobs, it may be entirely out of their control exactly how many hours they get from month to month, and so they are going to have to keep track of that very closely. You can get to 80 by adding in some volunteer hours, and so one of the things I talked about is we've made it easier to find volunteer shifts, but you've got to get to that 80 total number of hours, or you would be deemed ineligible. You'll get dropped from it, which is tough because that's not always a given to that you'll be able to get that from your employer.

Before the federal government, before this administration, the federal government would reimburse that. You lose your card, you're able to get a new one, they'll reload it for you because you're the victim. But now, if you are someone who loses your card or has someone more likely has taken your card, because we know about the fraud, as was mentioned, you are no longer able to get those benefits restored.

Yeah, that is the current situation. So if your benefits are stolen, I really think of it as theft rather than fraud. I mean, we should call it what it is. People are stealing these people's benefits. People who really need these dollars to put food on their table, especially right now, given the high cost of food. So if your benefits are stolen, there is no mechanism to restore those benefits currently.

Yeah. I mean, we certainly can't backfill stolen benefits. The SNAP program is entirely federal money, and so we would have to decide, you all would have to decide to allocate state dollars for that. and it's a lot. I think dollars would be best spent in, as soon as the technology is ready, moving us toward a chipped or tapped EBT card that protects those cards from swiping. Right now, all we're doing is spending a lot of money to to put new IT systems into place and to increase communications to recipients and all sorts of things to try to make sure they know what's coming so they do not get separated from their benefits. Many people, we believe, are actually meeting the requirements, but they've got to report them to us, and that's often where the communication breaks down.

You're welcome. Members, we have several other panelists who we will have present today, and so in the interest of time, I'm going to ask you to truncate your comments. I'm going to move to Representative Flick. He'll be followed by Representative Harris.

Is that correct? If the veteran has a diagnosis that prevents him or her from working, a medical condition that prevents him or her from working, is the way that it's written in the SNAP law.

Thank you. The chair, thanks to Representative Harris.

disability is exempt correct not just veterans but in general if it is a disability that prevents them from working there are many ways to think about disability but if it's a disability that prevents them from working they are likely to be exempt it's just that the veterans part of this is new. That's because you're a veteran, right? You're no longer exempt because you served. Right. I think it was an acknowledgement of what veterans have done for our country that they were given this exemption just out of the gate just because they were veterans. But that is no longer the case. Which is a tragedy, yes. The foster care youth, you know, we have a homeless homeless population of youth now in Philadelphia and across the state. And you said that one of the requirements is not going to qualify for a resume, help people prepare resumes or some training to get a job. So that doesn't qualify. Well, let me just restate that because I want to make sure people understand this and it's quite important. So if a person enrolls in a program that spends 49% of its time on the resume development and job seeking, and then 51% of its time on skills training or other training to prepare someone for a job, that counts. What does not count are there are a number of programs out there that only focus on that resume building and the job-seeking aspect of it, if there's no training component, then they are not going to qualify. That will not count as having met the requirement. There has to be at least 51% of the time spent in actual job skills training.

because you know, foster care, they come out of harsh conditions you know maybe they miss a lot of school things like that and they may need extra help on preparing resumes you know So that population I think is going to be marginalized What about the bureaucracy as far as, you know, it seems like at least everybody's going to be walking around with a ledger in a minute, you know. So, you know, what about the bureaucracy of what if they make a mistake, like just to comment on Representative Kincaid, the bureaucracy, how soon, what's the leniency of someone making a mistake, what's the time frame that they have to correct this? And what if they don't have access to a computer?

So they won't continue to get the benefits until that fulfilled process is over, or they'll just automatically cut off until that fulfilled process?

All right. Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah, you bet. A version of this presentation was made available to all district office staff a couple months ago, like several months ago as this was all rolling out. So we've been in regular communication with all of your district staffs. We get about anywhere from 250 to 300 communications from your offices every single day that my legislative team sorts through and gets back to. We have currently have no backlog in those 250 to 300 queries a day. So I'm incredibly proud of the folks that are sitting behind me that get that done. So we're kind of in constant communication with your district offices. We encouraging all of you and I think I sure you all do this make computers available in your district offices if you have a setup that allows you to do that I think for some folks it easy to get to your offices and if they can use a computer in your space that helps them a lot because most of these individuals do not have access to a computer in their home. And just helping, as I said earlier, to get this information out. You know best how to communicate with your constituents. You know where they are. You know what they read in your communities. whether it's something in your local paper, whether it's your newsletter, anything that will reach your constituents and explain all this to them so they know what's coming or what's here is extremely helpful to us. We have all kinds of materials on our websites, free social media graphics, all factual, you know, very accurate to help people navigate this time. So with that, and a lot of people don't have computers, but almost everybody has a smartphone. So when people come in the office, you know, helping them to navigate those systems, on their smartphone would be crucial. And also, we worked together last session to focus on waste, fraud, and abuse and doing the CHIP study to get the CHIP cards out there. And also, I think it was 2024 under the Biden administration when the total replacement of the EBT card was rolled back. There was a comment on that earlier. And I think there was a lot of fraud in that program. is one of the reasons why that was rolled back at that time for the replacement. But we certainly want to make sure that the people that need these benefits are going to be able to utilize those cards and not have it stolen and make sure it's not subject to fraud. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Thank you all.

How is this microphone good?

I think that's good. All right. Good morning, everybody. Chairman Williams, Chairman Heffley, members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I'm Ryan Prater, the Director of Public Policy at Feeding Pennsylvania, the State Association of Pennsylvania's nine Feeding America-affiliated food banks. Food insecurity has increased by 44% in just two years. When neighbors don't have the resources to put enough food on the table, they turn to their local food bank, pantry, or soup kitchen. Unfortunately, when times get tough, food is often the first thing our neighbors will forgo to make ends meet. Feeding Pennsylvania's food banks are the backbone of the Charitable Food Network, coordinating logistics and serving as distribution hubs for nearly 3,000 partner agencies statewide, many of which are volunteer and faith-based organizations. This decentralized system, along with our statewide scale, food safety standards, and national affiliations enable local communities to respond quickly to crises while using resources efficiently. Pennsylvania's charitable food system is resilient, and we are here to ensure no Pennsylvanian goes hungry. But the scope of hunger in Pennsylvania is much larger than what charity and nonprofits can address alone. To meet growing need the charitable food system must work in conjunction with federal programs like the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program or SNAP SNAP is the nation largest anti program enrolling about 1 million Pennsylvanians For every meal food banks provide SNAP provides nine Without SNAP, the charitable food system would not be able to fill the gap, and Pennsylvanians would go hungry. When SNAP payments stopped in November due to the federal government shutdown, food bank demand rose by over 10%. Emergency state funding helped us respond, but the level of need isn't sustainable. SNAP is a bridge to opportunity for millions of Pennsylvanians. When a neighbor loses their job or a working mom can't make ends meet, SNAP helps them afford their groceries, freeing up resources for other necessities like rent or utilities. It restores stability and offers a hand up during tough times. SNAP is supplemental in name and design, averaging only $6 per day. Applicants must prove their income and employment and complete an interview before receiving benefits. Benefits must be used at approved retailers and can only purchase eligible food items. Prepared foods like the salad bar or rotisserie chickens are actually not eligible due to federal rules. SNAP not only stabilizes families during times of crisis, it's also a sound investment. Every $1 of SNAP spent in grocery stores and farmers markets and corner stores generates $1.50 in economic activity, supporting everyone along the food supply chain, from the farmer to the truck driver to the cashier that checks you out. Increased SNAP participation is linked to lower diabetes rates, fewer inpatient admissions, and annual Medicaid savings of over $2,000 per person. Investing in SNAP can be a tool that helps balance the budget and supports local economies. States like Pennsylvania are navigating complex SNAP eligibility changes, like we just heard, and working to avoid federal financial penalties included in HR1. Expanded work requirements, while well-intentioned, don't help unless they're paired with the correct employment and training support. Over 80,000 Pennsylvanians have already lost benefits, and more are bound to fall off the rolls as the year continues. This approach doesn't address hunger. It only shifts the burden to charities. Additional paperwork and bureaucratic red tape raises costs and even sometimes forces eligible people off SNAP. We're also concerned about the state cost sharing and Pennsylvania's ability to continue operating SNAP program, which was touched on in the previous panel and also has a lot more details in my written testimony. The General Assembly must adequately fund SNAP administration in this year's budget. Without SNAP, Pennsylvanians will go hungry, and food banks will not be able to keep up with demand for food assistance. I urge you to fully meet the DHS budget request for SNAP. If further investment is possible, I urge you to consider two additional areas. First, SNAP outreach funding, which is used to match private funding from community-based organizations, and not just food banks, but tons of organizations that usually food is a component of what they do, but they provide other wraparound services. They match with their private funding. They can match SNAP outreach funding, which supports resources like SNAP hotlines and application assistance that reduces burden on DHS's internal system. Second, SNAP employment and training programs are key to helping people become self-sufficient. Pennsylvania's workforce development programs are already oversubscribed and underfunded, and we worry that they can't handle more clients due to the SNAP work requirements and starting next year the Medicaid community engagement requirements. Even those seeking training may not have an opportunity to participate despite DHS's recent efforts. Finally, I must elevate our budget request for the state food purchase program line item within the Department of Agriculture. SNAP is a critical first line of defense against hunger, but we know many Pennsylvanians still cannot make ends meet. This includes seniors whose Social Security doesn't stretch as far as it once did, and working families who are working multiple jobs but cannot keep up with the rising cost of living. And that's, I think, who we see the most right now coming to the Food Bank Network, is folks who are working trying to do everything they can but still can't make ends meet. The state food purchase program and the Pennsylvania Agricultural Surplus System help food banks provide healthy local food to meet this rising demand. Hunger affects all kinds of people, folks in the cities and in rural communities, kids, seniors, military families, the workers who service our food and deliver our packages, our own neighbors and friends. SNAP is there for anyone who hits a rough patch and needs a little bit of help to get back on their feet. I appreciate the opportunity to testify today and look forward to answering your questions. Thank you.

Absolutely. I think the two immediately come to mind. I think one is food deserts, and that looks very different. There's food deserts in both rural communities and our urban communities, but it looks a lot different. In rural communities, it goes hand in hand with transportation, which is kind of the other, I think, biggest challenge for our rural communities in terms of how far do you have to travel to get to a job, right?

There's no public transportation. Challenges like that. In our urban communities, there tends to be still food deserts, but I'd call them more, you know, fresh food deserts per se. So you might have your corner store or you might have the gas station where you can spend your EBT benefits, but that's not healthy food that helps you get back on your feet. It's not produce. It's not lean proteins. It's not dairy items. And so slightly different challenges kind of related in the sense of access and where do you spend those benefits and what type of food can you purchase with those benefits. But they do have their own unique challenges. And then certainly on the rural side, I think transportation is a barrier across the board in terms of getting to a food pantry, getting to a job. It kind of all goes hand in hand.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. We might see each other a lot. Um, so I, I think it's really important, um, for people to really understand what snap benefits actually look like in practice. Um, the average snap benefit is $6 a day, not a meal, but a day in order to feed, uh, uh, an adult person. I did the snap challenge last year and I lived on $30 for five days and I ended up with one of the worst colds of my life because the kinds of food that you are able to afford, even when you have access to a store that has fresh fruits and vegetables, you're not necessarily able to purchase those because they're not in the budget to be able to afford And in many ways the only way that I was able to afford what I did was because I happened to have Giant Eagle credits so I could use that against the total So you know this is not the kind of benefit that you know is allowing for you know sort of big spending on things And so I'm wondering if you can talk about, you know, as people are accessing our charitable food network, and potentially able to more easily access fresh fruits and vegetables. What kind of impact are you seeing in terms of folks accessing our charitable food network now versus the pandemic versus pre-pandemic?

Is that correct?

And so this year, the governor has actually proposed flat funding those two programs. So what is your request for what those programs actually should get in this budget?

So we'd be asking to go to 47 million, so about a 17 million increase. Thank you.

Yes, thank you for your testimony. I've recently introduced a bill suggesting that farmers get a tax credit if they donate to a food pantry or a food bank the excess crop that they have. I just heard that in the UK, I think, farmers have noticed a drop in consumption of potatoes, probably because everybody's on Ozempic or something. and they had millions of pounds of potatoes that were just being thrown away. So I would like to see in Pennsylvania our farmers get credit for taking their products that are in excess and donating them to you guys because I hate to see that stuff ending up in a landfill when there might be hungry people appreciating that. And then this is a little bit different, but do the cards, the snap cards, eliminate some products from being purchased on those cards if they're not considered healthy foods?

there a lot more challenges and costs associated with that Thank you Members I recognize the interest in this subject matter but we have to relinquish this room at 1030 and so I going to ask Representative Flick followed by Representative Harris, to make sure you truncate your comments so that we can get to our third panel. Please.

the Hunters Sharing the Harvest program. That is a fantastic program, again, kind of on that ag surplus side, especially with the overpopulation of deer, I think, that we are all talking about and all aware of. Yes, so Hunters Sharing the Harvest is a great program. Hunters can, you know, go hunt. They have an extra deer, an extra tag, or just want to donate, don't have enough space for the meat themselves. They can send it to a processor that is partnered with Hunters Sharing the Harvest. They cover the processing fee, and then they take that venison and distribute it out to the Charitable Food Network. Super popular, especially in our rural areas where, you know, I think they're a little more familiar with venison, but we even do see pockets in our urban areas that the pantries love that product because again, it's lean protein. It's more, it's, you never find, you know, you're not going out and finding venison kind of by itself. So it's just a great program that again, connects that local food directly with the charitable food network.

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

Yeah, I mean, we're certainly seeing, I think, the growing of urban agriculture and those programs. It feeds your local community, right? Keep that food local. There is plenty of need in every single community, every single district, every single township, borough, municipality across the Commonwealth. And so, yes, the only thing I think I'd add to that is not to say I have to caution, but, you know, I don't think we can grow our way out of this in that regard. I think that helps promote healthy food and certainly any access to more food helps. But the scale of 1.8 million Pennsylvanians, right, I think those help in those little communities and can help your immediate community. But the statewide scale, it's just really challenging and need to rely on some of the entire food system to make sure folks have access to the food they need to thrive.

Thank you.

All right, let's see if we got the mic. We good? All right. Good morning, Chairman Williams, Chairman Heffley, and members of the committee, and thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is Aaron Riggleman, and I serve on the government affairs team at the Pennsylvania Chamber of Business and Industry. We're the largest broad-based business group in the Commonwealth, and we represent roughly 12,000 employers in every industry in every county. And we work, our mission is to make Pennsylvania the most competitive state to do business. I'll attempt to keep my remarks short so we can get to questions, but really just wanted to spend some time focusing on what employers are seeing on the ground. because right now the biggest constraint on growth in Pennsylvania is not necessarily demand for our market. It's actually workforce. Employers are facing a common challenge across industries, and that's that they can't find enough workers, let alone qualified with the skills needed to fill the jobs that they hope to fill. This is true across many industries, manufacturing, construction, healthcare, childcare, hospitality, and so on. And as a result, these aren't, you know, the impact is real. When jobs go unfilled, projects are delayed, hours are reduced, and growth is constrained. And in some cases, we've heard from businesses that have turned down opportunities to invest in the Commonwealth because they simply, or expand in the Commonwealth, because they simply could not find enough workers to fill their positions. And this is not a short-term issue. We have a demographic crisis on our hands. Our workforce is aging and fewer workers are entering the labor market to replace those who are retiring. And so when we look at the challenge of workforce, it's really a combination of both population and participation. But for the purposes of this testimony, I think participation is the place where we can have an immediate impact in the near term. And if we don't address it, this gap is going to continue to widen. And one of those potential solutions is how public assistance programs, including SNAP, can better support workforce participation. But at the outset, I wanted to note and recognize that SNAP plays a critical role. It provides stability and helps individuals and families navigate difficult periods. And that stability can make it possible for somebody to pursue training or re-enter the workforce. And in that way, food security and workforce participation can and should go hand in hand. But with that foundation in place, I think there's an opportunity to better place a connection between SNAP and work, particularly for those with able-bodied or able-bodied adults without dependents. When designed well, work requirements are not about punishment. They are about connection. They can serve as a bridge to training, education, and employment opportunities that lead to long-term independence. And that connection matters because work provides more than income. It provides structure, purpose, and a pathway forward. Public policy should reflect that value while continuing to support those who need assistance. However, even the best policy design only works if it is implemented effectively. In practice any work requirement system must be simple clear and consistent Participants should understand what is expected of them And equally employers and workforce partners should have a straightforward way to engage If the process is overly complex or inconsistent, it will undermine the goal of connecting people to work. But even if we get the structure right, I wanted to note it is important that we connect people to real jobs, particularly as our economy is changing so rapidly and the nature of work is shifting. Pennsylvania has a strong demand in fields like the skilled trades, health care, technical occupations, where these jobs are increasingly sort of skill-specific. These are good-paying roles with clear career pathways, but they often require targeted trainings or credentials. And I think there's a recognition that some on SNAP may want to participate, which is why it's important, you know, in order to close this skill gap, we need stronger coordination with workforce systems and education providers and employers to ensure people are being prepared for jobs of the future. You know, one of my favorite statistics is that the average person will have 12 jobs in their lifetime, and 85% of those 12 have yet to be created. And so there's a question on how we prepare people with skills for those jobs into the future, which is, I think, where the business community stands ready to partner to provide those trainings and those opportunities and those jobs so people can have a pathway forward. Because at the end of the day, this is about making sure our policies are actually connecting people to work. If we do that well, it will benefit both individuals looking for opportunity and employers who are trying to grow. So thank you again for your time and would love to answer your questions.

Thank you, Chairman, and thank you, Mr. Regelman, for your testimony. I just have one question that always strikes me as I engage in the discussion with the chamber and food banks and SNAP. And that is, do you believe that in order to require people to work that we should increase the minimum wage? Well, I think that the, you know, I would

I would just challenge that thinking as we don't have the luxury of looking past individuals who are struggling to put food on their table and may have barriers to the workforce like child care or, you know, opportunities within their community. And it always kind of strikes me as concerning when we have the same organizations that are advocating for requirements that increase the difficulty of people's lives who are already struggling, in addition to accepting tax credits for donations to food banks, and then also standing in the way of actually helping people to actualize themselves and thrive And so I think that that some thinking that needs to take place as we continue down this road of you know food is a basic human need

If I may, just two points. First, on the barriers to employment, I think we're in agreement, and I think it's within my written testimony and a recognition. In fact, we're supporting a couple of housing bills today and in child care that we recognize those as barriers to employment. And on minimum wage, I would just note that the employers that are going to face the most outsized impact of a raised minimum wage are nonprofits that are provided in these various services. And so I would be very careful about the impact that raising the minimum wage would have on providing services, particularly charitable services, to those in need. Thank you.

Thank you. Well, first, I would push back on the idea that we can't raise the minimum wage because it might impact the organizations that are providing these services. Because if we can pay people a living wage, then they rely less on these services. I think that also your testimony sort of misses the point of places, especially in rural areas, that don't have access to the kinds of jobs that you are talking about. So sounds great. And I would love to have people have more access to these higher-paying jobs. They don't exist everywhere. And until we can help to expand that and restore that in these communities, we are seeing these populations decline and food deserts become a real issue. But, I mean, my question more so is about, so during the pandemic, we came within striking distance of actually solving food insecurity in the nation. because we put robust funds into our SNAP program. And one of the things that we don't really talk about is the impact of the loss of SNAP benefits on the merchants who are selling the food products that people are buying, and the farmers who are producing these food products. And as somebody who's representative of business, I'm wondering what you have been hearing from those folks about, you know, these proposed cuts, about the issues on that front.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Chairman, for this hearing.

Thank you, Chairman.

Thank you. Thank you.